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#1 TenthEnemy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 03:30 AM

This is the best I could do with my camera... Didn't turn out that great. Well, I can't think of anything to say, so enjoy, and tell me what you think.

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#2 Jeremy Perez

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 03:43 AM

Great work! Very nice rendition of the mottling in the trapezium box--also, nice touch with the finder graphic at the bottom. Welcome to the sketching forum.

#3 CarlosEH

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 05:27 AM

Welcome to the Cloudy Nights Sketching Forum. An excellent observation of the Orion Nebula. You have recorded the trapezium, core, and extensions very nicely. Thank you for sharing it with us all.

Carlos

#4 frank5817

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:24 AM

This is a very impressive sketch. I like the way you have captured its center piece. :bow:
After attempying it myself, I am more convinced, at least for me, it would be best to make this sketch over several nights.

Frank :)

#5 Tom Machtemes

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 11:44 AM

TenthEnemy,

Nice sketch, you will get better as time will go on.

:thanx:

Tom

#6 perfessor

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:37 PM

Very nice. You have included a lot of attractive details, including the vague sweeping extensions on the right. Keep up the good work!

#7 rolandlinda3

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 01:09 PM

Great first sketch on a complex but fun object. Keep sketching!

Roland

#8 rodelaet

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 05:31 PM

I think that you did a very good job with your first post.

This is quality sketching!

Keep up the good work. :)

#9 TenthEnemy

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 02:44 AM

Wow, thank you all so much. The camera actually changed the drawing somewhat, m43 got elongated the wrong way and there's some uneven illumination making the right and left sides washed out. One good thing is it smoothed out some of the lines that didn't blend properly.

As for the trap, it's not entirely accurate, there's way too much detail there for me to accurately place. It's an impression of what I saw, but I think it turned out great.

Clearly I just inverted the raw pencil sketch for a somewhat more natural look. Even though I love the processed sketches some of you do, I'm just going to stick to the raw sketches without editing them, similar to how some people don't want to use computer mounts or astrovideo, I don't want to mess with my finished drawings.

The finder at the bottom is just something I made in paint really quickly, I've got into the habit of fillings up any extra space I have with something like a chart or finderscope view. I think I'm rambling, so I'll shut up now, thanks again, and expect more sketches in the future! :whee:

#10 varmint

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:34 AM

Great work, a WAY better first sketch than I have posted (me still noob ;) ).

You'll find that the camera does weird things to your sketches, I am already wishing I had a scanner...

I also think you'll find that the more you sketch, the more detail you'll start to see. Welcome aboard, I look forward to seeing more of your work!

#11 markseibold

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:36 AM

TE Welcome to the sketching forum!

Very nice first attempt. :bow: :bow: :bow: I like the way that you accentuated the 'Fish Mouth' and it keeping at the center of the work. It draws me into it! It conveys the 'You are here' feel !!!

What can I say that I have not before about this most elusive DSO? I could spend a life-time sketching it different every time I try.
My Most Exerted Effort on M42

I was wondering what medium you used, then saw your answered post revealing graphite reversed. You might consider trying white and grey shades of pastel chalks on black Strathmore Artagain paper. I do not want to steer you too fast into another medium but the experience of sketching directly with the actual color of the nebulous light onto the black paper as the actual sky at night can be a real adventure in art work.

Good luck and I look forward to your future sketching adventures,

Mark
My CN Sketch Gallery

#12 TenthEnemy

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:44 AM

This isn't my first sketch, just my first post on this forum, and my first sketch of M42 through the 10 inch. I never wanted to draw this object through the XT10, the level of detail is scary, but I'm glad I did.

Most of my other sketches are sloppy and not worth mention, but I have a few older ones I like and might post. I made a Lulin sketch tonight, I'll try to post it here soon.

Edit: Mark, thanks for the kind words and suggestions. I have the black paper you're talking about and have used it successfully with open clusters, I never tried it with a diffuse object though, that's something to try. I used white conte, are you saying I should try something like a green pastel? Sounds like an incredible idea!

#13 markseibold

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 02:56 PM

TE

Yes; the standard dry semi-hard pastels are a wonderful discovery of an old world medium that is considered by some to be just as permanent and even further by other serious professional artists as more respectable than oil painting.

Oil painting can crack, discolor and degrade over time, where pastels have only one base binding medium chemical. As long as mounted and/or stored properly they retain their original color indefinitely.

M42 does apear somewhat green but it is very subtle. If you use color such as green and red (which can actually be seen in live observation from a dark sky in medium to large reflector telescopes) you will want to use those colors sparingly. Blending with various whites and greys to soften the light gradiation in a nebula rendering is the trick with pastels. The red and green pastels you would want to try are a pale lime green and a deep maroon or dark brick-orange. They can be blended with whatever method you prefer; blending stump, cotton swab, paper napkin, or some use their fingers but I recommend against that as the skin oil can blemish the paper and inhibit further blending. The human eye can barely detect these subtle colors as the cone cells in our retinas are hardly active at all in the dark. M42 in a large reflector emits enough light for some eyes to turn on the cone cells in our retina a bit and to see color at the brighter parts of M42. There is a brick orange appearance in the outer wisps or wings, where the central nebula region appears mostly green~white.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing your future efforts,

Mark

#14 TenthEnemy

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:42 PM

M42 appears green to my eye, I've seen bits of red in it but very subtle. I've never seen the any part of the nebula as white. In addition to this, if I'm using the UHC as I did with this sketch it is overwhelmingly green.

Maybe it's because my eyes never fully adapt due to the skyglow here, or maybe it's my relatively young eyes, but I always see M42 in color.

I'm certainly going to pick up some pastels, but I don't know anything about them, should the pale lime green, white, and grey colors be enough to do DSOs? I really have no idea what I'm getting into here, I've always just stuck to pencils and charcoal. I guess I'll just have to get some and try it out, that black paper is just sitting there right now...

#15 JayinUT

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 07:47 PM

A wonderful first posting here. I enjoyed your capturing the nebula and the contrast you give to the area of the trapezium and the texture of the cloud. Much much better than my first attempts at M42. I look forward to seeing more of your posts in the near future(?).

BTW M42 has appeared greenish or tealish to me in my observations, even without a filter.

#16 Tommy5

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 11:50 PM

Great sketch of M-42, keep posting sketches we would like to view them.

#17 markseibold

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:18 AM

I'm certainly going to pick up some pastels, but I don't know anything about them, should the pale lime green, white, and grey colors be enough to do DSOs? I really have no idea what I'm getting into here, I've always just stuck to pencils and charcoal. I guess I'll just have to get some and try it out, that black paper is just sitting there right now...


Tenth

If you are in or near a large town, most have several art supply stores. The employees or some are usually artists and a few will always be experts on pastels and sketching. I would recommend that you seek out those stores that have the employees that are knowledgeable about pastels. Do not be too concerned about rendering color for now. I would recommend that you grab a few pastel pencils too, also in white shades. Sharpen them carefully with a single edge razor or sandpaper pad of multiple pages (also available at art stores.) Any medium priced pastel chalks in stick or cylindrical round form are fine. Some singles start at $2 or $3 per each or higher quality brands from Holland, France and Germany may run as high as $5 or $6 per each. Other complete sets of say a dozen or two with many various basic colors can go for as little as $10 ~ $15.

Experiment and have fun. Your experience will develop and you will improve naturally. I commend you on your enthusiasm as many are afraid to try to sketch with pastels as if some big commitment. I usually tell them, wait till you try oil paints, mixing mediums etc; stretching a large canvas; the clean-up alone to care for expensive brushes (can run $5 ~ $50 per each!) after each work session is an undertaking and a discipline that will teach something to anyone. Seek out art studios in your region and watch a pro paint or sketch in pastels.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Mark

#18 TenthEnemy

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 01:14 AM

Are pastel chalks similar in any way to conté crayons? I have some limited experience with those, but again, only on white paper.

I'm enthusiast about it because I've seen some of your work, and it's amazing! For me, astronomy is all about learning new things, so i'll try a completely different technique, even though I don't know how it'll turn out. I'll probably be able to get to an art supply store sometime this week.

#19 markseibold

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:54 PM

TE

Sorry I forgot to address Conte Crayons. I have not used Conte Crayons; I was hoping that perhaps others here might respond to that. I know that Erika and Frank have done many sketches of the sun and moon in that medium. Conte Crayons, I believe are more like a wax Crayon. Where pastels are a dry chalk that blends and smears easily. Again, I would recommend that you visit an art store soon where you can see all of these materials.

I look forward to seeing your future sketch work,

Mark

#20 TenthEnemy

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 09:29 PM

Mark, you are like my hero now. This is my first attempt at pastel. It's not a real sketch, just did it from a picture of the Milky Way so I don't think it deserves it's own thread.

This drawing looks much better in real life, my camera is screwing with the lighting again. Imagine it with the center areas much darker, that light at the bottom shouldn't be there and the dark lanes are actually dark. It also has conte pencils in there as well. Moving back from the monitor helps some...

I'm very impressed with the pastels, very workable and easy to layer with.

Edit: Does this paper, or pastels in general not take too kindly to fixative? I applied some and it seemed to have given the whole thing a blend, It's like my paper acquired some light pollution! Is there a specific type I need? or perhaps I put too much? Hmmm... :question:

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#21 markseibold

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 01:00 AM

Tenth

This artwork deserves a special post! Wow!!! :bow: :bow: :bow: You are officially accepted in my art league! I am not sure what the moderators will say but personally I think this is a masterpiece! I would describe in a word that I cannot use in this forum. The "E" word.

I think you are on your way to art stardom if you'll excuse the pun. :cool:

As for fixatives, I never use them. Just store the works carefully in a large heavy portfolio art folder and do not smudge if possible. They say that fixatives dull the original luster and color but there are fixing methods that the professionals use successfully. I have never sought them out as yet.

I hope to see others responses to this new work of yours. Did you mention the paper format size and time spent on it? What pastel brands did you use? What tool did you use to blend? It looks like you have dived into this whole hog. I commend you!

Thanks again for posting this amazing work,

Mark

#22 TenthEnemy

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 12:46 PM

Ah, I see. Unfortunately I have to use a fixative to keep my drawings from smudging, even my pencil sketches. As you can see, some stars got smudged in this one before applying fixative, this picture was taken without it.

I did this on a very small paper, 9"x12" using Loew-Cornell pastels, a conté pencil, and cotton for blending.

I don't think it took over an hour to do this, considering it's such a small size. I just kept adding layers to it until it started to look like something.

Thank you so much for your comments, I hope the clouds will eventually clear up so I can try this out on a real object.

#23 frank5817

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 08:26 PM

TenthEnemy,

Excellent Milky Way sketch .... Oops.. :foreheadslap: did I use Mark's "E word". :cool: :rainbow: So if you can do it from a photo soon you must go outside, say summertime, and do it live overhead.
I do use fixative on my sketches but very,very little. I find Winsor & Newton Fixative for Pastel, Charcoal and Pencil works well. Use very little, the sketch will smear after use if not handled carefully. I use less than the directions call for. One can should be enough for at least 250 9'x 12" sketches. Do follow the directions for clearing the nozzle.

Frank :)

#24 TenthEnemy

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:00 AM

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I think I may have had the can too close to the page.

I wish I could just go outside and make a sketch like this, all I see of the Milky Way is a slight brightening from Cygnus to Cass. There's nothing in Sagittarius but stars and orange. I have to drives a few hours to see any details in it






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