Jump to content


Photo

Advantages of side by side setup?

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#1 Domerman

Domerman

    Just Lucky, I Guess.

  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2007
  • Loc: PA

Posted 23 February 2009 - 04:40 AM

What are the advantages of a side by side setup as opposed to a piggy back setup? Is it easier or harder to balance? Would it make a difference for two relatively small 80mm refractors?

#2 Samir Kharusi

Samir Kharusi

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Joined: 14 Jun 2005
  • Loc: Oman

Posted 23 February 2009 - 05:54 AM

Small 80mm refractors are only "small" on a heavy mount. Any mount behaves MUCH better when it is lightly loaded, eg at one quarter or even less than its design load. Loading a mount is not just a matter of weight. It matters even more how much the moment arm is. A very long refractor weighing, say, 10kg, would be much more unstable than a short SCT of the same weight on the same mount. Side-by-side mounting reduces the moment arm that the mount sees because the center of gravity of the combined OTAs is much closer to the mount's axes than if one OTA was mounted piggyback. That is the main advantage of side by side, and when you are dealing with heavy OTAs (eg myself with a C14 and a 6") then piggyback is just plain absurd, while side by side is still practical. The disadvantage of side by side is that it takes longer to balance on all axes, but that's only an extra few minutes once you get the hang of things. Piggyback has the advantages of lesser flex (given equal quality mounting accessories) and easier to get the scopes to point at more-or-less the same FoV. If you suspect that your mount is approaching its load limit, then the sensible choice is side-by-side. Hope that helps.

#3 TheMenace

TheMenace

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2008

Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:00 AM

The side by side lets you mount 4 scopes instead of two.
:foreheadslap: :lol:

#4 groz

groz

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
  • Joined: 14 Mar 2007
  • Loc: Campbell River, BC

Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:31 AM

Depending on how you do the configuration, there is another huge benefit for side by side. We bought dual saddle adapters for our two mounts. All of our telescopes have the same dovetail on them. We can mix and match in 'any old combination' by simply pulling one out of one of the saddles, and putting a different one in.

Here's a shot of or configuration a while back. Today, we have it set up a little different, the ST80 is beside the SCT. If you have multiple tubes, all on the same style of dovetail, then the dual saddle adapter method of side by side leaves you with a lot of flexibility swapping tubes around.

Attached Files



#5 jgraham

jgraham

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 13764
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2004
  • Loc: Miami Valley Astronomical Society

Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:57 AM

When mounting multiple telescopes I like to try and keep the scopes as close to the center of mass as possible, this reduces the moment of inertia, the amount of counterweights needed, and the overall weight. To accomplish this I use side-by-side as much as possible.

#6 Canadian

Canadian

    Vendor

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 660
  • Joined: 11 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:27 AM

The side by side lets you mount 4 scopes instead of two.
:foreheadslap: :lol:


How many?

Posted Image Posted Image

#7 DennisF

DennisF

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2006
  • Loc: Northern IL

Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:37 AM

That's the most impressive grab n go setup I've ever seen.:bigshock: :waytogo: BTW, how many therapy sessions do you have left? :winky:

#8 alanon

alanon

    Nobody tells me anything

  • *****
  • Posts: 3140
  • Joined: 29 Jun 2007
  • Loc: Las Vegas

Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:40 AM

I am Speechless! :bigshock:


You are going to poke your eye out one of these days. :)

#9 alanon

alanon

    Nobody tells me anything

  • *****
  • Posts: 3140
  • Joined: 29 Jun 2007
  • Loc: Las Vegas

Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:44 AM

Question:What kind of scope are you interested in buying sir??

Your answer: Wi Wi Wi Wi Wi Wi Wi William Optics.

The sales rep didn't realize you had a speech impediment. ;)

#10 ibase

ibase

    Aurora

  • *****
  • Posts: 4516
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2008
  • Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N

Posted 24 February 2009 - 04:11 AM

Any feelings of guilt at having 4 scopes have been completely obliterated. Thank you sooo much Garry!!! :bow:

Best,

#11 TheMenace

TheMenace

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2008

Posted 24 February 2009 - 05:01 AM

Do I see refractor freak?

:ubetcha:

The tears involved when that setup gets knocked over?

:scared:

#12 Lord Beowulf

Lord Beowulf

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Joined: 13 Oct 2008
  • Loc: Cedar Park, TX

Posted 24 February 2009 - 06:22 AM

How the heck do you get that many heads that close together? You must have a really close knit family! :roflmao:

Beo

#13 AlienFirstClass

AlienFirstClass

    Vendor

  • -----
  • Posts: 1254
  • Joined: 13 Feb 2009

Posted 24 February 2009 - 11:59 AM

When mounting multiple telescopes I like to try and keep the scopes as close to the center of mass as possible, this reduces the moment of inertia, the amount of counterweights needed, and the overall weight. To accomplish this I use side-by-side as much as possible.


How do you deal with a side by side arrangement when you only have one tube attached?

Counterweights?

#14 LLEEGE

LLEEGE

    True Blue

  • *****
  • Posts: 12896
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2005
  • Loc: Cloud-chester,NY

Posted 24 February 2009 - 12:04 PM

When mounting multiple telescopes I like to try and keep the scopes as close to the center of mass as possible, this reduces the moment of inertia, the amount of counterweights needed, and the overall weight. To accomplish this I use side-by-side as much as possible.


How do you deal with a side by side arrangement when you only have one tube attached?

Counterweights?

Remove the double saddle.

#15 jrcrilly

jrcrilly

    Refractor wienie no more

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 33809
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2003
  • Loc: NE Ohio

Posted 24 February 2009 - 12:19 PM

How do you deal with a side by side arrangement when you only have one tube attached?

Remove the double saddle.


Or, in my case, slide the side by side plate to position the single tube over the mount.

#16 CounterWeight

CounterWeight

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8167
  • Joined: 05 Oct 2008
  • Loc: Palo alto, CA.

Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:22 PM

Garry, quite an eyepiece turret there :) WOW.

I am thinking of going in this direction (side by side) with my CGE, and also have a bunch of questions. Soup to nuts really. I was looking at Cassidy products and there was a triple plate that got me thinkin'...Taks on the outboard and the 80ed 'tween...

Looking through the CGEM manual I saw there was a setting for this type setup... what needs to be done differently to accomplish this on a CGE? Or should I ask how are folks doing this on a CGE? Who all makes saddle plates and all the goodies? Thanks.

#17 TheMenace

TheMenace

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2008

Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:26 PM

I'm guessing there is at least $2000 just in mounting accessories.

ADM
:money:

#18 jrcrilly

jrcrilly

    Refractor wienie no more

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 33809
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2003
  • Loc: NE Ohio

Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:34 PM

I'm guessing there is at least $2000 just in mounting accessories.


A couple hundred bucks will net an adjustable side by side plate from ADM or Losmandy.

The reason the CGE has a setting for SBS use is that, unlike nearly every other GEM, it incorporates a DEC index switch. This means that, unlike nearly every other GEM, it knows that it has been set up "sideways". When they were originally shipped, there was no such setting and no need for one - an offset of 90 degrees would be entered by the operator to tell the mount about the new initial position and everything worked fine. That's how mine was, at least. Later, folks started having problems with SBS setups, possibly due to firmware changes in later models, or perhaps just a misunderstanding of the DEC offset setting. I never owned a later one, so I have no way of being sure about that. Now they've added the SBS setting to make it work again (or, perhaps, just to make it easier to make it work).

#19 mclewis1

mclewis1

    Thread Killer

  • ****-
  • Posts: 10908
  • Joined: 25 Feb 2006
  • Loc: New Brunswick, Canada

Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:49 PM

Jim,

You'll need a Losmandy D type side by side sold by Cassidy, Losmandy or ADM. The Cassidy is the triple as you know, the Losmandy and ADM are doubles.

First think about the spacing, with a C11 there is not a lot of room beside it on the Losmandy or ADM setups. I have a TMB115 beside my C11 and there is maybe another inch between them. It will depend on which tubes, the type of rings and where they are mounted. Generally you want the heaviest tube(s) over the center of gravity and as close to the mount as possible, not hanging far out on a lever. Think about which side your tube rings open and close on, it's usually a function of which way you slide a plate into the saddle ... but you should think about it.

Also think about the saddle type on the side by side, I prefer a saddle that I can tip in from the side rather than having to only slide a scope in from the end.

Balancing is the key to setting up and using a side by side configuration. You need to balance side to side (sliding the cross bar back and forth in the stock saddle) and then each scope back and forth in their own saddles and then the standard balancing with the mount's counterweight. It sounds complex but like anything with a little practice it comes fairly naturally. It also helps and makes things go much faster to take notes and/or mark the bars with the popular configurations.

Smaller scopes with vixen compatible rails can be handled with an adapter in one of the D type saddles or in the case of the triple you may permanently bolt a vixen compatible saddle into one of the positions.

On a CGE you'll need either the latest HC firmware (4.15) or the ADM CGE adapter (which rotates the side by side mounting bar another 90°). The clutch levers stick up a bit on the CGE which means you can't easily just slide the side by side setup out of the stock saddle ... on my ADM setup I need to remove one of the saddles to do this, so I tend to leave my scope setup in its side by side configuration.

Here is a shot of my setup (without the ADM CGE adapter in place), notice the spacing between the scopes and that the C11 is positioned closer over the original saddle because it weighs more than the refractor.

Attached Files



#20 Domerman

Domerman

    Just Lucky, I Guess.

  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2007
  • Loc: PA

Posted 24 February 2009 - 02:46 PM

I want to use the ADM side by side setup, but I do not want to use the three point adjustable rings offered by ADM. What type "clam shell" rings would I need for an ST80 and Orion 80ED so that I can attach them to the ADM saddle and which dovetails would I need?

#21 TheMenace

TheMenace

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2008

Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:08 PM

We need to know which mount you have,and which dove tail you are currently using or wanting to use.
ADM has side by side plates that fit losmandy,vixen,EQG etc.
They have any option you could possibly want,and will make you something if they don't already make it.
Great stuff!


losmandy to losmandy

vixen to vixen

adapter vixen to losmandy

dual saddle EQG

#22 Domerman

Domerman

    Just Lucky, I Guess.

  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2007
  • Loc: PA

Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:11 PM

Oh, I'm sorry I forgot to mention. I don't have the mount yet, but I'm planning on purchasing the Sirius EQ-G.

I'm pretty sure I need the vixen saddle but I do not know which rings I need for my two refractors.

#23 TheMenace

TheMenace

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 424
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2008

Posted 24 February 2009 - 04:13 PM

The scope will most likely come with rings and vixen dove tail,but if you buy used,you may need to buy extra sets.

http://www.scopestuff.com/ss_rings.htm

http://www.scopestuff.com/ss_scops.htm

#24 Domerman

Domerman

    Just Lucky, I Guess.

  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2007
  • Loc: PA

Posted 24 February 2009 - 04:19 PM

Will these rings screw on to this ADM dovetail?

http://www.admaccess...oducts/VDUP.htm

#25 Trebor777

Trebor777

    Hazy

  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
  • Joined: 04 Jan 2008
  • Loc: Connecticut - U.S.

Posted 24 February 2009 - 05:24 PM

Don't mean to jump in here - but I am.

Would it make more sense for me to piggyback (which I have been doing) my AT80ED on my SN10 (on Atlas EQ-G) or to mount them side by side.

The SN10 is a beast, while the AT80ED looks like a finderscope on it. I'm thinking that side by side would make balancing more of a pain. If I had 2 similar size scopes, side by side would definitely make more sense, but the difference between the 2 sizes has me questioning - hence my question.






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics