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G11 vs CGE

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#26 David Pavlich

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 09:36 PM

I'm not sure of his price now, but you can send a CGE to Doc Clay and have the PE dropped substantially.

David

#27 blueman

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 11:51 PM

This is true, you can get the CGE optimized. But you can not get parts to work on it yourself, though I realize that many would not wish to anyway, but the option is there with the G-11. Having to ship the mount in for service is not a good thing for me, but I like to tinker too. :)
I think they are both good mounts and comparable in price. So, the real question is, which would fit your needs better perhaps.
Blueman

#28 Charlie Hein

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 06:59 AM

...You can get the parts and replace them yourself when it is out of warranty...


This was the eventual tipping point for me. Every part for the G-11 is available as a spare part, and repair of the mount seems to be well within the capabilities of pretty much anyone with a minimum of savvy in this area - taking the mount apart wouldn't scare me a bit.

Upgrades to the mount design can be retrofitted simply by buying the new parts and replacing the old ones, so there's no reason at all for a G-11 of any age to not be 100% up to current design specs (or perhaps even better with the addition of an aftermarket worm and monolithic worm block) aside from the lack of desire to keep it up to date.

The CGE is a very good mount as well and should perform very well for you if you choose it, but the serviceability factor of the G-11 mount can't be overstated.

#29 Phil Cowell

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 07:26 AM

Upgrades to the mount design can be retrofitted simply by buying the new parts and replacing the old ones, so there's no reason at all for a G-11 of any age to not be 100% up to current design specs

Agreed on the mount it's the Gemini system that's outdated. Updates via EPROM are very 80's. It's the one area that would stop me getting a G11. A new version that was user upgradable like even the cheapest goto mount now adays might have made me consider a G11 or Titan. It seems to indicate user upgradability on the electronics is the opposite of the mount even if it is capable.
Phil

#30 Charlie Hein

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 08:11 AM


Upgrades to the mount design can be retrofitted simply by buying the new parts and replacing the old ones, so there's no reason at all for a G-11 of any age to not be 100% up to current design specs

Agreed on the mount it's the Gemini system that's outdated. Updates via EPROM are very 80's. It's the one area that would stop me getting a G11. A new version that was user upgradable like even the cheapest goto mount now adays might have made me consider a G11 or Titan. It seems to indicate user upgradability on the electronics is the opposite of the mount even if it is capable.
Phil


Hi Phil - I understand your point completely. At some point in the future just the availability of parts is going to drive a change in the electronics hardware of the Gemini controller, but in all honesty that day really has not arrived yet and probably won't for a very long time.

To be sure, updates to the Gemini are not as easy to accomplish as it would be for a flash-upgradable unit. That said, replacing the ROM on the Gemini is certainly not a difficult task at all to accomplish and the ROMs are readily available and inexpensive. If you have the capability to burn your own ROMs the Gemini software is freely available and this reduces the cost even more.

More to the point, IMO the Gemini software is extremely capable and very stable - it's not like there are continual updates to the software required to fix things that don't work right. It may not run on cutting edge hardware, but it's *really really good stuff*. This means that updates don't really need to be done very often.

One thing that you also have to take into account is that redesigning the Gemini for flash upgrade would likely require the complete replacement of the Gemini controller board at the very least, which would probably not be a cheap option at all for those of us who already own one.

If you put all this together my guess is that the design team probably is of the mindset that as long as the parts are readily available they will be sticking with the ROM based software design for as long as it is prudent to do so.

#31 GShaffer

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 08:32 AM

replacing the eproms is VERY easy to do, I just did this with my Vixen Skysensor 2000 PC and it really is simple plug and play.....sorry I cant view that as a drawback.

given the horror stories I have read about having to pay shipping both ways for the entire mount for a simple bolt on part replacement with the CGE I cant quite wrap my head around owning one.....thats not to say it isnt a FINE mount.


Upgrades to the mount design can be retrofitted simply by buying the new parts and replacing the old ones, so there's no reason at all for a G-11 of any age to not be 100% up to current design specs

Agreed on the mount it's the Gemini system that's outdated. Updates via EPROM are very 80's. It's the one area that would stop me getting a G11. A new version that was user upgradable like even the cheapest goto mount now adays might have made me consider a G11 or Titan. It seems to indicate user upgradability on the electronics is the opposite of the mount even if it is capable.
Phil



#32 Phil Cowell

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 10:06 AM

replacing the eproms is VERY easy to do, I just did this with my Vixen Skysensor 2000 PC and it really is simple plug and play.....sorry I cant view that as a drawback.

I'm a EE and for a consumer product to require EPROMs with the current state of technology is very primative. Also each time you open up and mess with the board you are introducing the possibility of ESD damage. Sorry but that's the reason I went with the CGE Pro over the Titan. The Gemini would be like going back to DOS in a GUI era.
Phil

#33 Eddgie

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 11:06 AM

I prefer the Tripod on the Celestron in some ways.. I don't think it is QUITE as stiff, but for a 4 or 5 inch refractor it is easily "Stiff Enough".

Why I prefer the CGE tripod though is that the tripod on the Losmandy doesn't fold. It has to be dis-assembled to transport. And erecting it seems a bit more fussy.

With the CGE, you simply pull up on the tripod and it folds up. To erect it, you simply spread and go.

The Losmandy by comparison makes you remove and re-attach each leg.

I also like the packaging on the CGE. It is just much tidier, and when you are moving it around, I fell like there is less to bang up. The Losmandy has motors that stick out oddly from the frame. I always worryied about my Losmandy motors being whacked (I did not have the Gemini, but rather the standard motor package).

One thing I DO like about the Gemini is the way the clutches work. Manual movement is far easier. And it even has really nice engraved setting circles. You COULD use this mount manually.

The CGE by comparison is only electronic. doesn't even HAVE setting circles.

Both of these are GREAT mounts though, and in the end, I think you will find the capabilites FAR, FAR more similar than different. The price is similar, the capacity is similar, and the performance is similer.

Flip a coin.. Call heads, and take the one you THINK you will like best. And my bet is that after you get it, you will say "Yes, I made the right choice, and anyone that buys the "Other" kind is missing out!" :roflmao:

#34 Charlie Hein

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 11:11 AM

replacing the eproms is VERY easy to do, I just did this with my Vixen Skysensor 2000 PC and it really is simple plug and play.....sorry I cant view that as a drawback.

I'm a EE and for a consumer product to require EPROMs with the current state of technology is very primative. Also each time you open up and mess with the board you are introducing the possibility of ESD damage. Sorry but that's the reason I went with the CGE Pro over the Titan. The Gemini would be like going back to DOS in a GUI era.
Phil


Hi Phil - as I said earlier, I do completely understand your position. At the end of the day it wasn't anywhere near the deal breaker for me that it was for you.

#35 Charlie Hein

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 11:12 AM

Flip a coin.. Call heads, and take the one you THINK you will like best. And my bet is that after you get it, you will say "Yes, I made the right choice, and anyone that buys the "Other" kind is missing out!" :roflmao:


There's a lot of truth to that!

#36 blueman

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Posted 02 May 2009 - 01:28 PM

Hi Troy,
Yes, the mount tracked well when new, the Mods just made the PE smoother and smaller, but it guided out fine before the Mods. I felt that the Mods were a worthwhile investment, but certainly they are not required to get a good image.
I now take 10 minute exposures normally. I can take much longer ones, but I find that 10 minutes is about right. Then if I did get a bad one due to some problem, there is only 10 minutes lost.
This is the link to OVision for the Worm and Block in English.

http://www.ovision.c...NS_english.html

This is a link to an American distributor of the MClennan Gearboxes.
http://www.alliedele...&DESC=P5-G11L82

On the Yahoo Losmandy Users Forum in the files section I have posted a "How To' for doing the gearbox mod.

This graph is an unguided raw PE of my mount after Mods, showing two worm cycles. No smoothing or algorithms used, just the actual PE as logged during the run.
Blueman :)

Attached Files



#37 Arbacia

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 08:10 AM

I prefer the Tripod on the Celestron in some ways..


As Edggie, I prefer the CGE tripod. Easier to set up and easy to pack than G11. Moreover the tips of the legs of the CGE are better in soft or irregular grounds.

Respect to the very mount I love both, probably I preffer G11, but I own a CGE. The internal motors of CGE are a good point.

#38 SteveC

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 04:42 PM

Having to send in a mount to the manufacturer and being without a mount for three months was a major eye openner. That's why I opted for the G11 over the CGE. I'm not the least bit concerned about my ability to replace parts on the G11.

I thought there would be an AP mount in my future, but I'm not sure about their ability to track and locate well without polar alignment before every use. I won't have my scope set up on a permanent pier and I'll have to wheel the mount around to access various parts of the sky.

#39 GShaffer

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 07:39 PM

I have no doubt that the CGE is a fine mount....matter of fact the ones I have personally seen were impressive....however like you that ship it back and do without for the simplest repairs/parts etc is a deal breaker for me.....Unless that policy changes I will never own one.....Not when a mount of the same capacity/quality/appeal etc is available for roughly the same money and doesnt have that limitation ie the G11.

Pretty much a no brainer for me.....

Having to send in a mount to the manufacturer and being without a mount for three months was a major eye openner. That's why I opted for the G11 over the CGE. I'm not the least bit concerned about my ability to replace parts on the G11.

I thought there would be an AP mount in my future, but I'm not sure about their ability to track and locate well without polar alignment before every use. I won't have my scope set up on a permanent pier and I'll have to wheel the mount around to access various parts of the sky.



#40 greekoh

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 07:52 PM

Lots of good feedback.
CGE pricing is appealing however the Losmandy G11 appears more appropriate for my needs.

I have a fixed pier but also require a good tripod which would allow me to setup a few hundred yards from the house to image those DSO's in the southern sky which escape my FOV.

Troy

#41 greekoh

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 06:38 PM

Well I went ahead and purchased the Losmandy G11\gemini should be here in a week.

Troy






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