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AP Mach1 GTO vs. Tak EM200 Temma

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#1 Scott Rose

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:51 AM

These two mounts are fairly close in price, load capacity, and weight. Yet, there are some real distinct differences. For those of you who have one of these, what made you pick one over the other, and those who have had experiences with either, what do you think. Assume availability is not an issue.
The load I am will be using is far under the max load. I presently have a vixen sxd and want to get into AP and will be imaging with a NP127is. So the two issues to me are is it worth the large investment over what I have, and if yes, which mount. Thanks.

#2 Jaxdialation

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:12 AM

What mount do you have now ? Will you have to set up each night you will use the mount?

The only reason to upgrade is to get more capability which you can use. How is your guiding with your current mount? How long are your subs, do you want them longer? If you have to set up each night, is it worth your while to polar align in about 15 minutes?

So the two issues to me are is it worth the large investment over what I have, and if yes, which mount. Thanks.



#3 WarrenS

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:21 AM

Go back in this forum about a week. Same general question came up with very good answers.

#4 Scott Rose

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:51 AM

That thread assumed you already had the tak and deciding whether to switch mounts. My question goes more to the initial purchase and why.

#5 Dan G

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 08:56 PM

Scott -

What imaging gear do you intend to use? I had the EM-200 with the ST-2000 on the NP127is. Worked very well. I was quite pleases with the setup and the polar scope is a dream if you set up each night. Then changed cameras to an FLI8300 with the FLI CFW2-7 plus a guide scope and camera(ST-402). All of the added weight on the end of the scope really changed the moment arm. I needed to really work on the balance to maintain the great tracking I had before. I moved up to the AP900. Also a great mount but I miss the simplicity of the Taks.

Dan in NY

#6 Scott Rose

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:13 PM

Dan, I plan on using the np127is and either the st200xcm or the canon xsi.
Did the lack of the hand controller bother you? I know you can use the little pocket pc instead of the hand controller but not familiar with the set up. I also think the tak is heavier than the mach1.

#7 Smo

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:41 PM

I believe none of the Taks have any PEC. Now if you get good polar alignment the PE is low enough that with guiding you should be fine.

However it is nice to know that the AP comes with PEMPro pre-programmed into the hand pad and once turned on you can get as good as sub arc second PE.

I had this debate last year as well and in the end I just couldn't deny myself the possibility to achieve the lowest PE possible.

#8 pop

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 02:11 PM

If money is not an issue.

If my total weight on the mount exclude counter-weights is 7 kg. or less. I would choose EM200 for sure. Because due to easy setup and very easy to do Polar alignment using its Polar scope.

If my equipment's weight is 10 kg. or more, I'm sure that Mach1 will shine. Mach1 can handle 15 kg. easily.

Pros of EM 200
==============
- more easy setup if equipment weight is 7-8 kg. or less (EM200 can handle up to 12 kg., I had use 17-18 kg. and found it is upper limit but nor recommended)
- very good Polar Alignment Scope and you will miss it.
- acceptable PE and very low random noise of gear and motor.
- I like EM200's ASCOM driver produced by Chuck. It is very good and intuitive than Mach1.

Con of EM200
============
- very slow slew rate
- require 24 V-DC if you want to go 700X.
- if you go more than 10 kg. you may consider about balancing issue. I never pass guiding 30 minute sub exposure. 15 min is good but not pass 30 minute. (12 kg load)
- can't pass meridian well like Mach1 did.
- control box of EM200 is stay side of a mount. It may get balance issue due to cable weight.
- too sensitive of balance. If you don't balance well enough, you may get experience not guiding issue.
- don't have a powerful hand controller. you mus use Temma drive ASCOM instead.

Pro of Mach1
===========
- very good load capacity. 18 kg. is very easy to handle.
- cable routing way is very useful to avoid complex cable management and avoid any cable issue like EM200 did.
- very good slew speed.
- very powerful of hand control box. It did like a small computer without real computer.
- very accurate Goto than EM200 temma II.

Con of Mach1
============
- Bad polar alignment. I have to do Drift alignment every time I do AP. I miss EM200 polar scope.
- Eagle pier is a bit heavy and not handy like tripod wood in EM200. ( I use Berlebach wooden tripod for EM200)
- But Eagle pier is very steady. I also like them but a bit weighty.
- Eagle pier is hard to do leveling.
- Ascom driver of Mach1 (4.99 produced by Ray) is not intuitive like EM200 Chuck did.
- Mach1 accessories is too many part. it is a bit confuse to use with.

Hope this help. I'm sorry that I didn't reply you fast. I just saw your PM. And I'm sorry for my bad English.

POP

#9 Jaxdialation

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 04:08 PM

Have you gotten your question answered? You are looking at several thousand dollars. If you don't know what you hope to gain from the upgrade you might well catch "analysis paralysis" :)

My question goes more to the initial purchase and why.



#10 RAKing

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 04:45 PM

Con of Mach1
============
- Bad polar alignment. I have to do Drift alignment every time I do AP. I miss EM200 polar scope.
- Eagle pier is a bit heavy and not handy like tripod wood in EM200. ( I use Berlebach wooden tripod for EM200)
- But Eagle pier is very steady. I also like them but a bit weighty.
- Eagle pier is hard to do leveling.
- Ascom driver of Mach1 (4.99 produced by Ray) is not intuitive like EM200 Chuck did.
- Mach1 accessories is too many part. it is a bit confuse to use with.


I am only a visual astronomer now and have never compared the A-P polar scope to the Tak, but my PASIL4 polar scope works very well on the Mach1. It has the Losmandy reticle pattern, so it was very easy for me to transition from my old Losmandy mount to the Mach 1. As long as I put Polaris in the proper spot, my scope finds and tracks everything great. You can fine tune it for imaging, but this should get you into the ball park.

I use a Losmandy GM-11 tripod with my Mach 1. It's a bit weighty, but very stable.

But the biggest selling point for me was the A-P hand control. It's the easiest and best I've ever used.

Cheers,

Ron

#11 Scott Rose

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:07 PM

John, seems like the AP mount is the better way to go for a couple of reasons that matter to me. The first is that it does not need a PC, so for casual observing the AP hand controller seems the better option. The weight of the AP is less than the Tak. The AP hand controller is better in the cold than either a laptop or a handheld pc. The only drawback I can see is the Tak is much more expensive than the tak. Another advantage of the AP is that if something goes wrong, it can be repaired here in the states by AP. I am not sure, but I assume the Tak would need to go back to Japan. I really need to find out more about the handheld PC and how good it is. Then I can make my decision. Thanks everyone for your honest input. Scott

#12 Mike Clemens

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:46 PM

> Bad polar alignment. I have to do Drift
> alignment every time I do AP. I miss EM200 polar scope.

This is a perpetual Tak advantage, but I dont understand why, is there something technologically challenging about adapting a Tak polar scope into a simple threaded bore?

best
Mike Clemens

#13 DeanS

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 08:32 PM

Maybe I am just lucky, but my polar scope works extremely well in both my 900 and 1200. And on my Mach1 I just sold it worked great too.

At star parties I generally do not spend much, if any, time using pempro to check the alignment. Sometimes it is nearly perfect, others time might have to spend 10-15 minutes but it is never off by much.

To me having the option of using the handcontroller is important, particularly if I am doing visual observing. But I imagine it is what ever you get used to.

Dean

#14 ylin

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 10:08 PM

Do you need to do draft alignment for AP with AP Mark1 every time? Or put it in another way, how long I can get for a sub without doing draft alignment?

#15 mariobmd

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 02:54 PM

Hi Scott,

For ease of set up and polar alignment, go for an EM200. For more functionality without a computer, go for a Mach1.
Both mounts tracks well. Both are good for imaging. I regret selling my EM200 since this would complement my AP1200.

Regards,

#16 Doug D.

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:34 PM

This is a perpetual Tak advantage, but I dont understand why, is there something technologically challenging about adapting a Tak polar scope into a simple threaded bore?

best
Mike Clemens


I've wondered the same thing for quite some time. Must be some reason...?

#17 Takman

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:53 AM

Hi Scott,

I chose the Mach1GTO over the Takahashi EM200 mount. Although I own a Takahashi telescope, I felt the Mach1 offered the following benefits:

- Cold weather performance
- Compact form factor that allows me to hide and funnel wires down the center of the mount
- A hand controller without the need for a PC

However, both mounts will be great performers.

#18 Balok

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:36 AM

Thanks for the info folks, I am making this decision now.
My EM 10 USD 2 is too small for an NP 127 etc.

I was out at - 15 C last week and the Pronto, Gibralter head & cradle got osteoarthritis.

Taks are great mounts but a 5 degrees Celsius lower threshold is a problem. - Northern Canada is not Hawaii.

#19 TxStars

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:04 PM


This is a perpetual Tak advantage, but I dont understand why, is there something technologically challenging about adapting a Tak polar scope into a simple threaded bore?

best
Mike Clemens


I've wondered the same thing for quite some time. Must be some reason...?


Yes there is a reason, most of the Tak polar scopes are not removable from the mounts (They are part of the R.A. Axis) I have taken some of them apart to replace the reticle and it is not for the faint of heart.
Some of the mounts (Space-Boy and the Teegul Sky Patrol II) have removable polar scopes that could be adapted to a mount.
I seem to remember a well known mount maker using a takakashi polar scope on one of his mountings. You would have to ask "Art" at Tak USA if he remembers which one it was. (Ed Byres?)

#20 johnnyha

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:40 PM

The Tak polar scopes work in conjunction with a longitude offset guage and bubble level on the mount, you would need to rig something if you wanted to use it in another scope i think.

#21 Scott99

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:22 PM

Hi Scott,

For ease of set up and polar alignment, go for an EM200. For more functionality without a computer, go for a Mach1.
Both mounts tracks well. Both are good for imaging. I regret selling my EM200 since this would complement my AP1200.

Regards,


Am I confused? All AP mounts have had (removeable) polar alignment scopes since the mid 90's. polar alignment is very easy with the scope.

With the Mach1 you don't even need it for visual. I usually leave it at home and just look through the peephole in the mount, if you center Polaris in the peephole it will track fine for visual use.

What AP mounts do not have is software that will compensate for poor polar alignment and make corrections for it.

#22 Jaxdialation

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:17 PM

I currently own both a Tak EM-400 and an AP 1200. There is no comparison in polar alignment speed between the two.

Your needs for precision may be different than other folks. I have never, not polar aligned a well as I can. The Tak is much faster and more better for the time spent :)

#23 Scott99

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 08:24 PM

I currently own both a Tak EM-400 and an AP 1200. There is no comparison in polar alignment speed between the two.

Your needs for precision may be different than other folks. I have never, not polar aligned a well as I can. The Tak is much faster and more better for the time spent :)


So it's faster to polar align the Tak mount? What makes it faster? just curious, are there fine adjustments, or the scope works better???

#24 Jaxdialation

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 10:53 AM

The tak polar scope is precisely marked for the positioning of Polaris at the location, day and time of alignment. Very little margin for error. Setting it up for your location date and time takes less than a minute, then you are left with only getting the Polaris centered in the correct spot. For me, this is typically less than a minute.

The benefit is a relatively high degree of precision in very little time. Call it user friendly. I can run 15 minute guided exposures doing only this quick process. If I am doing 30 minute exposures I run PAM to really dial it in.

#25 Scott99

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 03:13 PM

The tak polar scope is precisely marked for the positioning of Polaris at the location, day and time of alignment. Very little margin for error. Setting it up for your location date and time takes less than a minute, then you are left with only getting the Polaris centered in the correct spot. For me, this is typically less than a minute.

The benefit is a relatively high degree of precision in very little time. Call it user friendly. I can run 15 minute guided exposures doing only this quick process. If I am doing 30 minute exposures I run PAM to really dial it in.


so it's got a better polar scope than the AP Pasill, it has some alignment marks but sounds like Tak's marking system is better?







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