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What does HyperTunes mount mean?

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#1 Nigel_Choy

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:49 AM

When Reading some post from other people. I noticed some of their signatures wrote about their mounts they have, like example Celestron CGEM ( hypertunes by ___) I really don't understand what does hypertune mean.

Thanks for explaining

#2 dandabson

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:14 PM

Basically a hypertune is a tear down, regrease, and adjustment of all gear to gear surfaces. For some, that is all. Others go to the extremes of honing or polishing internal metal surfaces.

#3 Renae Gage

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:41 PM

It seems to be a bit of hyperbole, honestly. "Cleaning and Regreasing" doesn't sound as sexy as "hypertuning" though.

#4 JAT Observatory

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:28 PM

The original hypertune included the honing or polishing internal metal surfaces, it was one of the most important steps. It also included replacement bushings and high grade grease.

#5 j.w.white

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:39 PM

In my case, it also included some sanding/polishing and upgrading of ring bearings and spacers (oh, and removing some rust that came with the mount). I agree Eric, cleaning and regreasing isn't much of a "hypertune" - more like periodic maintenance. Depending on any specific issues with the mount (stiction, balance issues, etc.), Hypertuning can be a big help. Deep Space Products offers it as both an in-house service and a Do-It-Yourself kit ( http://www.deepspace.../hypertune.html ).

#6 Ira

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:52 PM

Steve Forbes offers it for iOptron alt-az mounts, where it is much more than a regrease and adjust: http://www.trapeziumtelescopes.com/

/Ira

#7 rmollise

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:22 PM

When Reading some post from other people. I noticed some of their signatures wrote about their mounts they have, like example Celestron CGEM ( hypertunes by ___) I really don't understand what does hypertune mean.


What it means is that someone has opened up the mount and messed with it. That can occasionally be a good thing, usually something that has no practical effect of anykind, or, unfortunately, sometimes a disaster. ;)

#8 Struzzin

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:43 PM

What it means is that someone has opened up the mount and messed with it. That can occasionally be a good thing, usually something that has no practical effect of anykind, or, unfortunately, sometimes a disaster. ;)

LOL Many people who use a mount for some time and then pay ??? for a hypertune say that they notice little if any difference. Although some swear by it, but that just may be in their heads :looney:

#9 BlueGrass

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 09:50 PM

For those of us who've had actual mechanical problems with their mounts, a hypertune does make a significant difference. This is not a golly, what can I spend some money on this month expenditure. In my case, I had a choice. Send it back to Celestron for warranty repair or send it off for basically a rework and rebuild. I chose the later for a number of reasons, most importantly getting the mount back quickly. At the time I sent my CGEM to DSP, the wait time for Celestron warranty turn around was a number of weeks. And there was no guarantee that your mount was going to be 'fixed'. Was my mount better after hypertune? Undoubtedly. Would I have received a rebuilt, improved mount back from Celestron? Probably. I really can't speak to their speed and quality of service so I'll leave it to others to voice their opinions and experiences.

I'm sure others will chime in here. If you have the tools, time and mechanical ability a DIY kit is ideal. If not, DSP offers the service with quality work.

#10 dkb

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:17 AM

Sorry but I've also hyper tuned my own cgem and there is a world of difference. Before the ra axis would literally stick at certain positions and was generally difficult to rotate. After I started taking it apart it was quite evident where the two problems were. One was one of the bearings was extremely difficult to turn by hand while all the others turned freely. This was due to too much grease packed in the bearing. The other problem was the actual "brass" gear housing rubbing against the housing at certain locations and sanding that slightly fixed that. The axis now can spin several rotations freely with the clutch disengaged when pushed by hand once. It would be obvious to anyone who saw before and after behavior that a "hyper tune" made a near unusable mount to one better then most new ones.

#11 alpal

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:20 AM

There is an adjustment on the Dec & RA shafts to place
the gears closer together (on an EQ6 mount & probably all mounts)
It is very important to have it right otherwise backlash
problems will stop auto-guiding from working.
That was my case until I had it fixed.
That is a hypertune in my book but you could also put
in good quality bearings & grease.

#12 bardo

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:44 AM

When Reading some post from other people. I noticed some of their signatures wrote about their mounts they have, like example Celestron CGEM ( hypertunes by ___) I really don't understand what does hypertune mean.


What it means is that someone has opened up the mount and messed with it. That can occasionally be a good thing, usually something that has no practical effect of anykind, or, unfortunately, sometimes a disaster. ;)


:lol: too true!

#13 j.w.white

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 02:08 AM

In my case, I actually DID send it back to Celestron for warranty work. It came back "fixed" but with the exact same issues (sticking in RA and DEC axes - unable to balance with resulting impacts on tracking and autoguiding). Celestron "offered" to look at it again, but at my expense.

There are some folks out there who a) have never done it, b) don't understand it or c) have staked out a position because they "know" better than the rest of us who have actually made our mounts better as a result. I'm sure there are disaster cases out there too, folks like that tend not to want to advertise their outcomes though. In the end, it is something that you have to undertake with your eyes wide open, especially if you do it yourself, and with a full understanding of the potential implications.

The bottom line is that there certainly seems to be enough empirical data to suggest that Hypertuning improves the performance of a mount - I've certainly read far more accounts where it has improved the mount rather than having no effect, or a negative effect (and with all due respect, I doubt very seriously if it's some kind of mass delusion suffered by folks who are tired of fighting their mounts). But anyone contemplating it (or passing judgment on it) should do their research, not take the word of any particular individual.

#14 mak7

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 02:17 AM

After wasting 3 weeks with C tech support on a brand new CGEM, I sent it to them as they requested. I included a list of things they said needed to be looked at after the 3 week communication and info gathering we did together via email.
They sent a warranty receipt back with it saying they updated the hand control. Not one thing on the list we had mutualy determined needed attention was listed on the warranty receipt. The mount performed worse than originally received after service and had to be replaced by the dealer.
The new mount replacement was substantially better than the original but was impossible to balance properly as the axis would not turn freely. That strained motors and gears.

I sent it off for a Hypertune and could not believe the improvements of the mount I received back. Balances easily, no straining motor sounds, no gears jumping and a pleasure to use. I can now run loads within Celestrons own specs without problems.

Do not question the validity of a properly performed Hypertune if you receive an inferior example of a mount. I guess you have to get the manufactures assistance for warranty. But sooner or later you get tired of trying to get help and realise there is very little quality control involved with mediocre, mass produced mounts.

I for one am tired of hearing not only that there is no need for a Hypertune,or that it could mess things up, but that the manufacturer will make it right, and mostly from people that at one time I respected their opinion. Now I don't. I have never personally heard or read of a Hypertune that turned out to be a " disaster ". It can be quite beneficial if needed, and it is not something the factory is willing to spend the time doing under warranty.

If you receive a good sample of the mount, congratulations, that is how it should be. If you do not, seek warranty repair or return to the dealer. If you think a Hypertune could help you, do your homework as you should.

My CGEM is now a pleasure to use and the only problems I have encountered........ are self inflicted.
Brad

#15 alpal

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 03:25 AM

Hi Mak7 - I was lucky in that there was an expert in Melbourne
who did a hypertune for me.
Without that I wouldn't be able to auto-guide.
I can now auto-guide with a light 4.5" Newt.
Now I will transfer the guidescope to a heavy 8" Newt & try it.

#16 bardo

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:24 AM

In my case, I actually DID send it back to Celestron for warranty work. It came back "fixed" but with the exact same issues (sticking in RA and DEC axes - unable to balance with resulting impacts on tracking and autoguiding). Celestron "offered" to look at it again, but at my expense.

There are some folks out there who a) have never done it, b) don't understand it or c) have staked out a position because they "know" better than the rest of us who have actually made our mounts better as a result. I'm sure there are disaster cases out there too, folks like that tend not to want to advertise their outcomes though. In the end, it is something that you have to undertake with your eyes wide open, especially if you do it yourself, and with a full understanding of the potential implications.

The bottom line is that there certainly seems to be enough empirical data to suggest that Hypertuning improves the performance of a mount - I've certainly read far more accounts where it has improved the mount rather than having no effect, or a negative effect (and with all due respect, I doubt very seriously if it's some kind of mass delusion suffered by folks who are tired of fighting their mounts). But anyone contemplating it (or passing judgment on it) should do their research, not take the word of any particular individual.


empiracal data? not from what ive had first hand experience with. I have bought 3 different used mounts who have all had it done. NEVER again. If I see one thats been hypertuned i stay away because everytime they're major pieces of junk. the last one i got was a LXD55. the tracking is much worse than stock (i meassured with PHD and owned one stock), the polar scope is completely trashed, the DSP high-res encoders ruined, and the worm blocks are stripped in the center hole. and that doesnt compare to a LXD75 i bought i few years back. I've owned them stock so i know how they're supposed to perform.
as well I've done it myself to a CG-5. re-greased, new bushings, new teflon spacers, lapped the worms and polished the internals. maybe 1 arc sec better PE after all that, which is pretty much in the error zone anyway.

the best most reliable mount ive owned is my current atlas, I am convinced this is because the origanl owner never tried to "soup it up."

now when i hear "hypertune" i cant help but think of a 16 year old putting neon lights and a fart can exhaust on a honda civic. or billy bob installing traction bars and cutting the catalytic converter off his new camero.

from my experience its for the most part not much more than an internet meme. maybe in the earlier production runs with synta glue or just a mesh adjustment it makes or made a positive difference. never owned a CGEM but if they're that bad from the factory i dont think i want to.

here my stock atlas in 10 degree weather.

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#17 j.w.white

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:18 AM

empiracal data? not from what ive had first hand experience with.


Well, we can look at the responses on this thread (although that's a pretty limited sampling), five who have had it done (or did it themselves) and are happy with the outcome, and one who purchased "hypertuned" mounts who isn't.

the polar scope is completely trashed, the DSP high-res encoders ruined, and the worm blocks are stripped in the center hole. and that doesnt compare to a LXD75 i bought i few years back


This sounds a bit more serious than a Hypertune. In fact, no where in the Hypertune process do you even TOUCH the polar scope, let alone the encoders. I think one needs to be careful of how the term "Hypertune" is used. Hypertune is a registered product of Deep Space Products. It's easy enough to fall into the trap of using the term like one might say "I xeroxed that" when you really meant to say "photocopy". Kind of like souping up your car, or bike, or computer, or...... mount - generic terms don't necessarily imply standards, just a loose intent.

as well I've done it myself to a CG-5. re-greased, new bushings, new teflon spacers, lapped the worms and polished the internals. maybe 1 arc sec better PE after all that, which is pretty much in the error zone anyway.


Glad to see it made some difference, but quite frankly - why would anyone bother if there was nothing wrong with the mount in the first place? Let's face it, Hypertuning is NOT cheap! Whether or not it provides value for the money (as it seems to have in the majority of cases on this thread) is a personal decision - but there are enough things to throw money at without ripping apart your mount (or paying someone else to) for no good reason!

maybe in the earlier days of synta glue or just a mesh adjustment it makes or made a positive difference but anymore its for newbs that are told no different


Hmmmm - so you honestly think everyone on just THIS thread is so "newb" that none of us know any different? Not to say all of the others who have had the service and are satisfied with it?

It's obvious that you've had a bad time with folks "messing" with their mounts, and it's understandable that you've developed a bad vibe with all after-market tinkering. Fare enough. Heaven knows that I've had my bad experiences with products and services and it has colored my view of them. Every informed viewpoint is valuable, and is what helps others to construct their own informed viewpoint. Perhaps distinguishing between "souping up" one's mount, and Hypertuning, would contribute more.

#18 bardo

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:45 AM

Well, we can look at the responses on this thread (although that's a pretty limited sampling), five who have had it done (or did it themselves) and are happy with the outcome, and one who purchased "hypertuned" mounts who isn't.


confirmation bias?

This sounds a bit more serious than a Hypertune. In fact, no where in the Hypertune process do you even TOUCH the polar scope, let alone the encoders. I think one needs to be careful of how the term "Hypertune" is used. Hypertune is a registered product of Deep Space Products. It's easy enough to fall into the trap of using the term like one might say "I xeroxed that" when you really meant to say "photocopy". Kind of like souping up your car, or bike, or computer, or...... mount - generic terms don't necessarily imply standards, just a loose intent.


it goes to show a certain number who attempt to do end up with a lesser mount. you do in fact touch the encoders for the meade mounts.

true i am using the term generically.


Glad to see it made some difference, but quite frankly - why would anyone bother if there was nothing wrong with the mount in the first place? Let's face it, Hypertuning is NOT cheap! Whether or not it provides value for the money (as it seems to have in the majority of cases on this thread) is a personal decision - but there are enough things to throw money at without ripping apart your mount (or paying someone else to) for no good reason!



that doesnt say anything about if its doing any good, let alone a cost benefit ratio. thats merely begging the question. yes the mounts arent perfect, but that doesnt in anyway mean hypertuning is worth a darn in general for every mount. but that is the way its always portrayed on forums. there is such a thing as a placebo effect.

Hmmmm - so you honestly think everyone on just THIS thread is so "newb" that none of us know any different? Not to say all of the others who have had the service and are satisfied with it?



seriously? baiting much? :roflmao:


It's obvious that you've had a bad time with folks "messing" with their mounts, and it's understandable that you've developed a bad vibe with all after-market tinkering. Fare enough. Heaven knows that I've had my bad experiences with products and services and it has colored my view of them. Every informed viewpoint is valuable, and is what helps others to construct their own informed viewpoint. Perhaps distinguishing between "souping up" one's mount, and Hypertuning, would contribute more.



i didnt realize hypertuning was a trademarked name, sorry. if you would like to tally up all the positive experiences with empiracal data, lets say at least before and after PE measurements, their practical effects on the intended use of the mount, and the cost and effort involved versus neutral or negative experiences be my guest.

my personal experience and obviously others is that its sort of a band-wagon phenomenon and generally (perhaps not always) negligible at best.

you hear alot about how bad some CGEM's are from the factory, but you dont hear about all the ones that are fine......i suspect you probablly dont hear much about someone who spent a bunch of money on an already expensive mount and it didnt really do much. or i doubt you'll hear from the home tinkerer that stripped a bunch of bolts and bent the worms on accident talk about it much either.

new people to the hobby want to know if this expensive under-taking is going to be worth it, especially since they usually just depleted their bank account getting the basics in the first place. is it? does it make the guiding better? is it giving better average FWHM from better guiding? what is the reality and the real cost/benefit?

#19 rmollise

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:52 AM

There are some folks out there who a) have never done it, b) don't understand it or c) have staked out a position because they "know" better than the rest of us who have actually made our mounts better as a result.


I haven't "staked out" a thing. Nor do I think I necessarily know better. All I can do is report what I've seen, which is what I did. ;)

#20 j.w.white

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:10 AM

maybe in the earlier days of synta glue or just a mesh adjustment it makes or made a positive difference but anymore its for newbs that are told no different


Hmmmm - so you honestly think everyone on just THIS thread is so "newb" that none of us know any different? Not to say all of the others who have had the service and are satisfied with it?



seriously? baiting much? :roflmao:


Honestly, no - just responding to the generalization you made on your last post before you deleted it. I'm glad to see that you did, as it really wasn't called for and added nothing to the discussion.

You obviously have an immovable opinion, and that's alright (I'm sure the same could be said about mine). Like I said, anyone contemplating this should do their research and draw their own conclusions - hopefully no one would plunk down the cash based solely on what either you or I alone have to say.

#21 bardo

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:12 AM

I only edited the comment because it was worded wrong to me. newbs dont know what is solid fact and what isnt exactly, i remember being there. most of the hypertune hysteria ive seen is mere testament and conjecture. and most that ive personally dealt with was neutral at best and often negative. (especially as a used selling point)

also i do not have an unmoveable opinion, its actually easily swayed by solid data and experience.

#22 John Carruthers

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:23 AM

we may be comparing apples and oranges a bit too. We need to define 'hypertune' to me it means what in the old car tuning days was called 'blueprinting'. Many mounts have their own idiosyncrasies, some are made well but poorly assembled, some need more than a strip,clean, relube and adjust.
Replacing bearings and modifying parts to me counts as a hypertune.
Without replacing worms and bearings the PE is not likely to decrease BUT it may be smoother.

#23 mak7

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:07 PM

John,
You make a very good point that we have no definition between a Hypertune and some one just attempting a hotrod of their mount.

The Hypertune that my mount received from Deep Space Products polished internal surfaces, replaced cheap plastic bearings with teflon bearings, replaced original ball bearings with ceramic ball bearings, cleaned all surfaces and removed sticky grease and replaced it.

I can only wonder what some tinkerers have done to their mounts and no wonder people are leary of the thought of buying a home done fixer upper.

A Hypertune done at Deep Space Products is a plus, but it would be hard to tell what you would get from an authorised Hypertune kit done by an inexperianced mount owner trying to follow the directions. Even worse somebody that tears into their mount thinking they can fix it.

A Hypertune is not needed for every mount. I think once you know yours has problems and get no real recourse from the factory, the Hypertune is the next viable alternative and can be a great assistance to many of us.

My opinion is that my CGEM was turned around from unable to track and guide to a very respectable mass produced, mediocre mount. I can actually guide it now, and hope to start using it for photography once all things are in place, mostly only my own personal knowledge is lacking now.
Brad

#24 bookworm14

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:21 PM

Does "hypertune" also apply to optical tubes, or is there a different word for maximizing the performance of the OT beyond mere collimation?
bookworm

#25 John Carruthers

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:42 PM

OTA tune up? Much less scope there or need as the production tolerances are necessarily much tighter. It used to be common practice in the 'bad old days' to buy a mass produced scope, refigure the mirror and sell it on, gradually improving your current instrument over many years.

Focusers are a popular after sales modification but most optics are serviceable and if not up to spec (no pun) can usually be returned.
Rarely an ota may need baffling/flocking. Sometimes a better secondary mirror may help.
Unless you want to get into the esoteric world of lens design then generally no, ota's are probably best left to the manufacturers or experts.
Suitable test equipment and more importantly the expertise to use it and interpret the results would have to come first.

Also, I'm not sure 'hypertune' is an accurate term (or 'supertune') they both smack of marketing to me rather as 'de lux' has come to mean bigger, not better. Although they are in common usage, generally accepted and understood in the astronomical community to mean 'enhanced in some way'.






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