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What does HyperTunes mount mean?

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#26 bookworm14

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:17 PM

Well, the reason I asked is because I am not getting good images of Jupiter on visual with my CPC 11 inch. Jupiter is mostly a bright blob with very little detail. I can barely make out some bands. So I was thinking about sending the OTA off to be "hypertuned" or "super-collimated" or "rejiggered" or whatever the term might be. Thus my question.
bookworm

#27 dkb

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:56 PM

I'm not sure how finding a bearing inside a mount that takes a large amount of force to turn by hand, even compared to the other exact same bearings in the mount (this being a CGEM with 6 ring bearings) is not evidence enough that a "HyperTune" was worth it. You don't need a photometer outside to measure if it is day time or night time while you are standing outside do you? These fixes/modifications are quite evident and don't require empirical data to back them up. If I were to claim that this improved my periodic error then yes, I would expect to see some before and after data.

The problem is as I see it is that individuals here are lumping every modification/opening of a mount as "HyperTuning". Just because someone sells you a mount that is labelled as self "HyperTuned" doesn't mean they did a good job or knew what they were doing. They are using the terminology to sell a product that they perceive as an extra feature that can garner more money. When it is "HyperTuned" badly it obviously gives the rest of the people who did do a good job a bad stigma. Some of the "fixes" which have shown drastic improvements mentioned here are for the CGEM which are fairly easy to fix when you know how to fix it or "HyperTune" it and have consistently shown improvements.

#28 gnowellsct

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:46 PM

I think hypertuned means that the mount has been altered after market to perform to the manufacturer's specifications because the manufacturer can't or won't meet specifications.

regards
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#29 BlueGrass

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:11 PM

Greg,
I think you're pretty much on target. The reason many of us Hypertune our CGEMs is because of its poor mechanical performance, specifically in balancing and tracking. This is typically due to ring gear binding in the housing or a bad bearing. These are not minor problems that work themselves out. Take a look at John's photos of his DIY Hypertune over on the Yahoo group.

I don't think a majority of mounts need a rework and upgrade. Most folks are pleased with their performance. There are some mounts though that do need some significant work to get them running correctly.

Hypertuning is just one more aspect of this hobby that seems to spark a heated debate. LOL. Like every other aspect does not? I find these debates both informative and at the same time, frustrating. Far too often they devolve into FUD and we're left with just another thread abandoned and archived with no one who reads it later, really sure what the 'facts' are.

#30 alrosm

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:03 PM

I'm surprised, I heard a lot about doc clay with meade but I never heard about hypertuning for celestron mounts.

#31 gosavich

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:04 PM

Here's to confirmation bias and the celebration of quantitative and actual comparisons....

Clear Skies!

:-)

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#32 RTLR 12

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:14 PM

Would a simple worm gear adjustment show the same results?

Stan

#33 gosavich

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:48 PM

In this particular case, no. I don't think a simple worm gear adjustment would have improved the raw PE as much as doing a complete tear-down, bearing replacement, re-assembly, re-greasing, and final adjustment has shown here with my particular results. One of my original RA bearings had been throroughly worn and needed to be replaced. As with anything in the hobby, however, YMMV.

I do agree with the interpretation that "hypertuning" can, in some cases, be thought of as regular servicing. But servicing implies the periodic application of basic work and adjustments to maintain performance. The goal of "hypertuning" is to measurably improve performance.

So, whether you choose to embellish the terminology or not, the end results in my case were very positive.

:-)

#34 EFT

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 12:05 PM

Post deleted by Bowmoreman

#35 tjugo

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 02:07 PM

Hi,

In my experience hypertune means that the mount has been disassembled and adjusted to improve performance. But that doesn't mean the mount will perform better.

In my experience a DIY hypertune will degrade the mount's performance.

I tried to hypertune my CG5, why? Because the Dec axis was impossible to balance. I ruined my mount, after a couple of nights the Dec axis was stuck...

I gave up and send the mount to deep space products. I was lucky because the damage I inflicted to my mount was repairable.

After the service provided by deep space products the mount can be balanced in Dec and the PE is much smoother...

My advise is:

-- Don't hypertune your mount unless it really has a problem. In case you decide to do it, send it to a pro
-- Don't do it yourself, really, it is more likely that you will break it!

Cheers,

Jose

#36 EFT

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 02:26 PM

Post deleted by Bowmoreman

#37 Bowmoreman

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:41 PM

Returning this thread for resumption of the discussion after some cleanup relating to TOS violations.

Thanks for your patience

#38 jimb1001

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:01 PM

If your mount is working properly, ie. to manufacturing specs, hypertuning is unlikely to make it "better".

If your mount is broken or not operating to spec, hypertuning then becomes a repair with maintenance issues resolved as a result of tear down and reassembly.

Warranty work is likely to be hit or miss in terms of actually fixing the perceived problem and will likely take much longer than you want.

Doing it yourself is likely to worsen performance.

If its broken, get it fixed, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Does that pretty much sum things up?

#39 alpal

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 10:05 AM

Doing it yourself is likely to worsen performance



Not if you know what you're doing.

#40 avarakin

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:16 PM

There is an adjustment on the Dec & RA shafts to place
the gears closer together (on an EQ6 mount & probably all mounts)
It is very important to have it right otherwise backlash
problems will stop auto-guiding from working.
That was my case until I had it fixed.
That is a hypertune in my book but you could also put
in good quality bearings & grease.


Al,

What you described is called worm gear mesh adjustment and I don't think this can be called hypertuning. All owners of GEMs should be able to perform this simple mechanical operation because it has to be done periodically and may require several iterations to get it just right.

Alex

#41 avarakin

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:41 PM

Sorry but I've also hyper tuned my own cgem and there is a world of difference. Before the ra axis would literally stick at certain positions and was generally difficult to rotate. After I started taking it apart it was quite evident where the two problems were. One was one of the bearings was extremely difficult to turn by hand while all the others turned freely. This was due to too much grease packed in the bearing. The other problem was the actual "brass" gear housing rubbing against the housing at certain locations and sanding that slightly fixed that. The axis now can spin several rotations freely with the clutch disengaged when pushed by hand once. It would be obvious to anyone who saw before and after behavior that a "hyper tune" made a near unusable mount to one better then most new ones.


I don't think this is hypertuning, I would call it "fixing manufacturing problems"

In my opinion definition of hypertuning should be: "improvements of normally functioning mount which are not part of regular maintenance", so the following can qualify as hypertuning:
-replacing worm gears
-polishing/honing working surfaces
-replacing bearings
-replacing gears like warpdrive for lxd75
-replacing grease by a better one


Alex

#42 vpcirc

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 05:54 PM

I recently visited a dealer whom I will not mention out of privacy reasons. They stated to me they end up returning 1 out of every 6 cgems sold. I'm not suggesting that CGEM's are all bad, but their partner factory in China leaves some doubts about quality control. Celestron's pro mounts on the other hand do not suffer these issues. Celestron is not alone. In trying to mass produce a gem on the cheap has caused many problems for several manufacturers. I no longer own my CGEM, but before I had it "hypertuned" by deepspace, it was not suitable for imaging work. (I sold it to save my back in setup). Once the mount was hypertuned, I could image for 15 min with no trails. Before the hypertune, I could get a minute. The pointing accuracy was horrible despite Celestron's superior software to my current mount. I had a choice, spend $300 to get it right, or send it back to Celestron and wait a month and hope it comes back right. I love my Vixen, and I haven't had to do anything to it. After the first star is aligned, every star appears in the FOV of a 12 mm. Unfortunately,despite it's accuracy, the software is lacking and I have to use TheSky, to image many IC's and NGC's that don't appear in the database. It's assembled in Japan rather than China. Now if Vixen would just buy Celestron's software, and Celestron would use Vixen's factory for assembly.......

#43 orlyandico

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 06:27 PM

Sadly Celestron used to use Vixen's factory.. hence the proliferation of Celestron Super Polaris and the like. Guess things got too expensive for them.

vpcirc, I ended up with the CGEM (vs the SXD) because nobody I know can successfully image with a C9.25 on an SXD. Hope I don't get your experience, or a DIY "hypertune" is in my future..

#44 alpal

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 06:35 PM

There is an adjustment on the Dec & RA shafts to place
the gears closer together (on an EQ6 mount & probably all mounts)
It is very important to have it right otherwise backlash
problems will stop auto-guiding from working.
That was my case until I had it fixed.
That is a hypertune in my book but you could also put
in good quality bearings & grease.


Al,

What you described is called worm gear mesh adjustment and I don't think this can be called hypertuning. All owners of GEMs should be able to perform this simple mechanical operation because it has to be done periodically and may require several iterations to get it just right.

Alex



Point taken.

#45 vpcirc

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 07:41 PM

On the factory tripod I would agree on the 9.25. I am wondering now though since I built a concrete pier that seems to be much more stable. I also switched to guiding with finderscope. They rate that mount at 50lbs, but I think 25 lbs would be the safe limit. I was running a side by side setup with a meade 102 and a meade 80, and didn't have any tracking issues. But I think my total load was 21.5 lbs with cameras.

#46 bluedandelion

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:59 AM

What it means is that someone has opened up the mount and messed with it. That can occasionally be a good thing, usually something that has no practical effect of anykind, or, unfortunately, sometimes a disaster. ;)


Messing with some of these mounts can be a good thing. I think Uncle Rod's advice in the vein of, "let sleeping dogs lie" when it comes to mounts (or SCT or anything else) is generally good advice so long as you are getting acceptable performance out of the mount (or SCT or whatever else).

My own Atlas was bought used and was of older vintage. Last winter it became stiff in the dec axis and I steeled myself and opened it up. It of course had the melted yak glue in place of grease and there were paint chips and metal shavings mixed in with the grease. I assumed that some of this detritus got there during assembly but some might have been generated as parts that were not machined to specs ground against each other. So I polished the parts, replaced the grease, replaced the worm bearings and tuned the mesh.

Messing with my mount paid of wonderfully. It is easier to balance and my PHD graphs are superb. Maybe this spring when the Great Washington Nebula has evaporated I will post a screenshot.

Besides the state of the mount another thing to consider is your own mechanical aptitude and patience. It is easy to foul up things if you don't go slow. As in thermodynamics, quick actions may be irreversible :lol:

Ajay

#47 alpal

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 07:51 AM

That's good Blue.
With my EQ6 mount I couldn't get PHD to guide it at all until
I had the backlash adjusted by an expert.
The DEC axis line would go right off the graph
& the RA wasn't much better.






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