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Shall I or should I resist?(Nikon 8x32 se)

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#26 Pinewood

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:31 AM

Pinwood, thanks for your concerns with blackouts. Is this only when wearing glasses, or just a result of the long eye relief?

Hello Simon ,

It seems that wearers of specs are more prone to blackouts, also known as kidney bean effect, than those who do not wear specs.

Regarding Kenny's method of compensating for extended eye relief, I must write that similar solution, bending the eyecups halfway down did me no good. Another suggested solution is to tip the binoculars up, when using. I found that uncomfortable and I was unwilling to have a binocular that required special handling. As I have written elsewhere, I find the 8x32 SE to be unfriendly. However, I am certainly in a minority in that opinion.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur

#27 KennyJ

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:17 PM

Arthur ( and others ),

The fitting of washers as spacers to eradicate the possibility of placing the eyes slightly too close to the eyepieces seems to achieve more than does simply folding the eye cups.

TeleVue supply what is effectively a similarly acting centraliser to use with their longer eye - relief eyepieces which also works a treat.

But I understand your point about the inconvenience of having to modify ANYTHING with binoculars to make them the pleasure to use that they ought to be.

Personally, I don't even find the standard Nikon SE to present a problem at all when I'm wearing my glasses,even with the eye cups fully rolled back.

It's only when NOT wearing glasses that the slightly excessive eye relief combined with the spherical aberration of the exit - pupils combine to make eye placement a bit finicky.

Kenny

#28 Simon S

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 12:44 PM

Rich V, Kidney bean effect is the result of viewing a binocular with long eye relief to closely to the eyes. The result is a black "blob" appearing in the view, similar to a Kidney bean.
Arthur thank you for your comments, but I think me mind is set.
I will let you know how I get on.

#29 Rich V.

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:36 PM

Rich V, Kidney bean effect is the result of viewing a binocular with long eye relief to closely to the eyes. The result is a black "blob" appearing in the view, similar to a Kidney bean.


Not necessarily, hence the link to "spherical aberration of the exit pupil". ;) Any eyepiece will black out if your eye is located inside of the proper eye relief point. The SA is a different animal...

Sorry most of the links in the archived posts are dead.

Halfway down this page:

http://www.telescope...berration_2.htm

Just past halfway down here:

http://www.handprint.../ASTRO/ae3.html

Rich

#30 Joe Ogiba

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:52 PM

I remember reading about the 8x32 SE way back in the late 90's on BetterViewDesired.com .

#31 edwincjones

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:51 PM

A good rule of thumb for binoculars: If you can afford the price, never resist.

Mike


to my determent, my belief also

edj

#32 moynihan

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:14 PM

It's MY birding bino.

BillC


Ditto

#33 Pinewood

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:46 PM

Arthur thank you for your comments, but I think me mind is set.
I will let you know how I get on.


Simon,

Most people love the 8x32 SE. I prefer many other glasses including the Nikon 8x30 EII.

One of the lesser discussed aspects of using binoculars is the human-optics interface. One can put a binocular on an optical bench, describe it specifications and still one cannot be sure how each user finds the view.

I do not enjoy struggling with optics, rather I look for the "easy" or "relaxed view." I am the same way with computers. After struggling with Windows XP, I vowed never to use a Microsoft operating system, again; a vow I have kept.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur

#34 planetmalc

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:01 AM

Most people love the 8x32 SE. I prefer many other glasses including the Nikon 8x30 EII.

Arthur


Hear hear! I reckon there's a lot more to a good binocular than edge-to-edge sharpness (which is where the 8 x 32 SE excels). I did some extensive field-testing (daylight only) on 5 squat 8x Porro's of 30/32mm aperture, ranking them on a combination of abberations that I was prepared to put up with, plus ergonomics and extended-viewing comfort (all gave brilliant views, of course), and came up with this list:-

1. Nikon 8 x 30 E2 (so you're not alone, Arthur!)
2. Zeiss (West) 8 x 30B (the 60 degree AFOV variant)
3. Nikon 8 x 32 SE
4. Nikon 8 x 30 E
5. Zeiss (West) 8 x 30

#35 steve@37n83.9w

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:19 AM



Most people love the 8x32 SE. I prefer many other glasses including the Nikon 8x30 EII.

Arthur


Hear hear! I reckon there's a lot more to a good binocular than edge-to-edge sharpness (which is where the 8 x 32 SE excels). I did some extensive field-testing (daylight only) on 5 squat 8x Porro's of 30/32mm aperture, ranking them on a combination of abberations that I was prepared to put up with, plus ergonomics and extended-viewing comfort, and came up with this list:-

1. Nikon 8 x 30 E2 (so you're not alone, Arthur!)
2. Zeiss (West) 8 x 30B (the 60 degree AFOV variant)
3. Nikon 8 x 32 SE
4. Nikon 8 x 30 E
5. Zeiss (West) 8 x 30



Very nice list of 8x Porros used in your comparison. If you ever get the chance try the "sleeper" in 8x Porros, the Opticron 8x32 SR GA. The Opticron features great Japanese build quality, superlative optics, good ergonomics (at least for me), and sells for less than half of some of the other premium 8x Porros.

Like you and Arthur I'm a big fan of the EII which I use a lot for daytime terrestrial use because of its huge fov combined with its unerring ability to "center" the subject. I know it's a combination of how well a binocular fits you and of course your familiarity with the binocular but when I see something and bring the EII to my eyes for a closer look the subject is right there in the center virtually every time.

I also use my SE's a lot being one of the lucky ones not bothered by blackouts but normally use my SE's at night under the sky. I do however use the 12x50 SE during the day when I need a little extra reach to discern details in a distant subject.

Steve

#36 planetmalc

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:52 AM



Most people love the 8x32 SE. I prefer many other glasses including the Nikon 8x30 EII.

Arthur


Hear hear! I reckon there's a lot more to a good binocular than edge-to-edge sharpness (which is where the 8 x 32 SE excels). I did some extensive field-testing (daylight only) on 5 squat 8x Porro's of 30/32mm aperture, ranking them on a combination of abberations that I was prepared to put up with, plus ergonomics and extended-viewing comfort, and came up with this list:-

1. Nikon 8 x 30 E2 (so you're not alone, Arthur!)
2. Zeiss (West) 8 x 30B (the 60 degree AFOV variant)
3. Nikon 8 x 32 SE
4. Nikon 8 x 30 E
5. Zeiss (West) 8 x 30



Very nice list of 8x Porros used in your comparison. If you ever get the chance try the "sleeper" in 8x Porros, the Opticron 8x32 SR GA. The Opticron features great Japanese build quality, superlative optics, good ergonomics (at least for me), and sells for less than half of some of the other premium 8x Porros.

Like you and Arthur I'm a big fan of the EII which I use a lot for daytime terrestrial use because of its huge fov combined with its unerring ability to "center" the subject. I know it's a combination of how well a binocular fits you and of course your familiarity with the binocular but when I see something and bring the EII to my eyes for a closer look the subject is right there in the center virtually every time.

I also use my SE's a lot being one of the lucky ones not bothered by blackouts but normally use my SE's at night under the sky. I do however use the 12x50 SE during the day when I need a little extra reach to discern details in a distant subject.

Steve


Being a Brit, I see plenty of Opticrons in shops and have tried their 'Hi-Res' 8 x 32 Porro (which I think has the same optics set as the SR GA) and agree with everything you say about it; in fact, the whole range seems really good. It's also very light, which I like. Another great range that was around at the same time as the Hi-Res was the original Swift 'Ultralite' Porro series, and their 8 x 32 was certainly ultra-light! Slightly yellowish cast to the image, IIRC, but nothing too serious. Wish I'd bought one.

#37 Pinewood

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 12:30 PM

Hello all,

This is getting off topic. However, I would add the 8x30 Leitz Binuxit to my favorites, if only it had multi-coating. Even Dr. Merlitz thought well of it. Mine is almost 60 years old.

Happy collecting,
Arthur

#38 Simon S

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 01:07 PM

The Binuxit is a fabulous binocular.
The best 8x30 and out performs the 8x30 Oberkochen by a small way.

#39 FrankL

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 02:34 PM

The Binuxit is a fabulous binocular.
The best 8x30 and out performs the 8x30 Oberkochen by a small way.

I agree, Simon. And if only the Binuxit and Zeiss Oberkochen had multi-coatings I think they would give the 8X32 SE a run for its money. My feeling is they both would be a little better.

#40 Neil Sanford

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:22 AM

(1) IMHO the kidney-bean problem in the 8x32SE is not solved by getting the correct eye distance from the eye lens. You can get the perfect eye distance via extended eyecups, or an appropriate hold (more below), and then this: gently and naturally roll your eyes in the field of view and see prominent, distracting, black edges.

(2) I use binos pretty much daily simply to enjoy views, switching among: Nikon 8x30E2, Fujinon 8x30FMT-SX, Leica 8x32BN, Swarovski 8x30W porro. Easiest/quickest eye placement is the E2, followed by the Fujinon & Leica about same, with the Swarovski slightly finicky on initial eye placement. (But if I could keep only one, it would be the Swarovski.) Anyway, in each you can gently, naturally roll your eyes around the field of view and enjoy. Not so in an 8x32SE.

(3) In that respect I find the 8x32SE quite unnatural and soon tiring. Sure, I can “relax” my eyes toward the centered field and appreciate its truly spectacular view. But that “relaxing” soon turns to tension, as it is natural to slightly roll the eyes when viewing, and then one sees a lot of black.

(4) Some years ago I requested here confirmation of my impression that the 8x42SE is much less prone to this problem. Kenny responded with his usual eloquence, “Yes.” In my 8x42SE I experience negligible kidney bean and enjoy this bino tremendously. Vaguely I recall that Nikon first issued the 10x42SE as a pure tour de force, an ideal. Soon after came the 8x32SE as a follow-on ... all same optics except objectives. Maybe that necessitated the compromise of worse kidney bean.

(5) IMHO with small porros, to get best eye distance, we should not be modifying eyecups etc. We should learn how to hold them. Have a look at Hold #2 at: http://binocularsky....binoc_hold.php. Fingers around eyecups give so many benefits regarding stray light, contrast, eye distance, and steadiness that translates to resolution. I venture that daytime with a small porro Hold #2 adds about $500 worth of optical benefit.

#41 Pinewood

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 05:35 AM

(1) IMHO the kidney-bean problem in the 8x32SE is not solved by getting the correct eye distance from the eye lens. You can get the perfect eye distance via extended eyecups, or an appropriate hold (more below), and then this: gently and naturally roll your eyes in the field of view and see prominent, distracting, black edges.

Hello Sanford,

Definitely, that is to be avoided with the 8x32 SE. When one uses the EII or many first quality binoculars, this is not a problem. In my case, I favor binoculars with FOV's wider than the SE, so I generally let my eyes wander around the field. In bird watching, this technique allows one to notice targets at the periphery. This technique does not require the field to be sharp to the edge, as color, mass or movement may be detected, even in a soft edge. This is one of the reasons I consider the SE to be unfriendly. I want a binocular to accommodate me, rather than I should accommodate the binocular.

Incidentally, on BirdForum, my comments were taken, by at least one owner of the SE, as criticism of the owner rather than of the the binocular. Among some bird watchers, this glass has taken on a cult like following. I am simply happy that there are enough binoculars on the market, including some vintage ones,to satisfy all sorts of personal tastes and needs.

Clear skies,
Arthur Pinewood

#42 FrankKD

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 10:36 AM

Having owned both the SE and the E II my experiences differ somewhat from the others posted. In my particular situation the E II does not offer enough eye relief while the SE is perfect. The difference in my case is my facial dimensions. I have relatively narrow-set eyes and a high bridge to my nose. Because of this I either require that a binocular have long eye relief or relatively narrow eyecups (so the ocular surface can be placed closer to my eyes).

Though the EII is a fabulous performer I have to completely remove the rubber eyecups in order to receive the full experience that so many others take for granted.

It was the only reason I sold mine several years ago.

I have never run into a problem with blackouts with the 8x32 SE. The only reason I sold my last one was because I found the Sightron SII (roof) to be more to my liking with similar optical performance levels.

#43 Simon S

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 11:27 AM

Looks like I might not be getting them after all. Out of stock apparently! Bit disappointed...

#44 rydberg

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 05:23 PM

Hi Simon:
It might not be ideal, but B&H photo claims a 7-14 days shipping time, and they do ship outside us.
Perhaps you may want to contact them.
LINK

Also Optics Planet claims to carry them, but I don't know what the stock situation is and if they ship outside US.
LINK

#45 Grimnir

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:52 AM

Rydberg,

Alas! I think we in the UK have to pay 20% VAT on optical goods imported from outside the EU. However I have PMd Simon on a reputable dealer who has them at a good price in the UK.

Graham

#46 Simon S

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:40 AM

Good news the 8x32 is on its way and should have it Sunday.

#47 Simon S

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 01:02 PM

Binoculars arrived this afternoon, and first thing that really stands out are how amazingly bright they are. Comparing them on a dull dingy day with my very best 8x30 binocular, the Leitz Binuxit The Nikon is much brighter and although the Leitz matches the Nikon on central sharpness, the Nikon is sharper towards the field stop than the Binuxit.

The blackout problem Pinewood complained about is just noticeable if the IPD is not correctly set. It does not seem to be associated with eye relief but more on a fairly critical eye placement.
I will carry out some more testing in good light but so far I am very impressed.

#48 Pinewood

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 03:37 PM

Binoculars arrived this afternoon, and first thing that really stands out are how amazingly bright they are. Comparing them on a dull dingy day with my very best 8x30 binocular, the Leitz Binuxit The Nikon is much brighter and although the Leitz matches the Nikon on central sharpness, the Nikon is sharper towards the field stop than the Binuxit.

The blackout problem Pinewood complained about is just noticeable if the IPD is not correctly set. It does not seem to be associated with eye relief but more on a fairly critical eye placement.
I will carry out some more testing in good light but so far I am very impressed.

Hello Simon,

Modern coatings and an extra 2 mm of objective diameter make a huge difference in brightness. Additionally, the Binuxit probably has uncoated prisms. The Binuxit was introduced about 75 years, ago and updated with single coatings about ten years, later.
The Se has been described as a binocular with very good eyepieces.

Happy collecting,
Arthur

#49 Simon S

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:46 AM

Here is my review.
http://www.youtube.c...=1&feature=plcp

#50 KennyJ

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:26 AM

Very honest, well spoken and recorded,Simon.

Well done !

Kenny






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