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17 sec (x1024) Camera Sony 960h Exview HAD CCD2

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#451 ccs_hello

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:21 PM

Here is the user manual http://www.novuscctv...webfm_send/3114 . Please have a look.


In gain setting, it has no-AGC, Automatic Gain Control-low, AGC-medium, and AGC-high. Not seeing any mentioning of manual gain control. No dependency on how its setting with other setting would interact.

1024x is by Sense-Up setting (unlike LNtech300's use Electric Lens MENU.) No clue on how it is implemented (e.g., on-CCD long exposure, or multiple summing of medium-time exposures).

So in summary YMMV, probably not optimal.

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#452 Moromete

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:18 AM

Thx.

It has AGC Low-Med-High (see page 13 in User Manual).

1) What importance does it have if 1024x is by Sense-Up setting unlike LNtech300's use Electric Lens MENU? Which is better and why?

2) What importance does it have if it's on-CCD long exposure or multiple summing of medium-time exposures? Which is better and why?

3) Regarding Lntech 300, when Electric Lens is put on x1024 do you use AGC on Low or Off?

4) Lntech300 does not modify exposure duration according to the scene it detects and it keeps it fixed by the user (e.g. you set EL to x1024 and the camera exposes for x256,etc.)?


Pls excuse my lack of technical knowledge.

#453 ccs_hello

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

(1) AGC is "automatic". The decision logic (brain) of the AGC usually does not work well for extreme low-light situations such as astro applications.

(2) Former has better S/N; latter has more frequent update rate so you see the "gradual picture improvement (up to the max. exposure time window)" except trading off S/N for that.

(3) In that mode, need to set AGC to OFF. In such configuration, the gain is fixed at LOW and is not user adjustable. This is not a good design for astro. We contacted the seller to refer to the mfg. AFAIK, it won't be fixed in the foreseeable future.

(4)For LN300, we figured out the proper configuration to defeat that useless brain.
In many videocams, they have similar stories. That's why I said w/o manual, you are driving in blind. With manual in hand you're betting on (better) luck. Only with the actual unit in front of you, you know you hit a jackpot or yet another dud.

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#454 Moromete

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:03 AM

Now things are more clear for me.

What happens if you set AGC on Low and E.Lens to x1024 in Lntech300?

Considering you keep AGC on Off on Lntech300 and E.Lens to x1024, isn't Samsung SCB2000 a better camera for astro (even with x512)? Will the SCB2000 show a little more on DSOs than Lntech300 (with x1024 and AGC Off) if you set AGC on Low and SenseUp to x512 on Samsung? Or is the same or worse?

I have no experience with either camera.

#455 ccs_hello

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:23 AM

When LNtech300 is set in E.Lens mode, AGC must be set to OFF. If set to any other value, the E.Lens value is no longer correct. I.e., the brain overrides you.

E.g., Low, Med, High, etc. are all relative terms, and different brand/models pick their own numbers. Matt had probed the I2C setting on Ln300's A/D AFE to know the actual gain setting. (OFF is not zero but few dB gain, fixed.)

For Samsung SDC435, I don't remember.

Anyway, 1024x gives you an honest double amount time to collect double amount of photons for a better S (in S/N) to begin with. While Gain is analog signal amplification (which amplifies CCD noise and adds amplifier noise from itself as well).

If you are from a classic astroimager background, I'd guess you (most of them) will pick long exposure (unless bad tracking, bad seeing, bad light pollution) but also have to offset that with longer exposure == more thermal noise from sensor internally generated heat.

There is no perfect solution. BTW, SDC435 is using fine reso CCD, while LNtech300 is using the super-fine reso CCD. I.e., less pixel area to capture photon flux.
Also do not forget both do in-camera DSP post-processing.

If you ask me for my personal $0.02 view, I'd vote for SDC435 just for myself being classic.
If money is tight, go with LN300.

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#456 Moromete

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:18 AM

Thx for clarifying things.

The only thing I haven't understood is if Samsung can be used with AGC Low and SenseUp x512 and if it shows at least the detail on DSOs like LNTECH300 with AGC Off and SenseUp x1024.

Personally, if noise increases just a little, I prefer AGC On and shorter integration times.

I think it's boring to use a Mallincam with minutes long exposures and wait minutes to see each DSO without speaking about tracking/autoguiding.

#457 mclewis1

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:45 PM

The Samsungs work well on the brighter DSOs when used with fast optics. It's also important to remove that built in IR filter. They also do a good job on solar system objects, and to my eye they're better on these objects than the Mallincams.

Spending $100-120 on a basic Samsung and some accessories should be considered an investment in video experience and you get an effective solar system camera in the deal as well. It will however usually leave you wanting a more sensitive longer exposure camera with a wider fov ... which is tough on the budget. Another use for the Samsung camera when you have a more sensitive camera is as a wide field finder. Adding a small C mount lens or using a modified finder scope will get you useful wide field views ... and this is one use where shorter exposure/integration times are a benefit.

The downsides to the Samsungs are:
- smaller sensor, the 1/3" or 6mm sensors have a smaller fov than the 1/2" 8mm sensors in the more expensive cameras
- non intuitive menu system - you'll probably find the menu system very strange at first and it does take practice to get used to it.
- noisy images when using 8 second (512x) exposure/integration times.
- lack of sensitivity and capability to go beyond the 512x integration which limits the number of objects you can effectively view.
- the need to do a little internal work yourself (removal of the IR filter, and possibly adding a home made remote control box for the OSD buttons).

Purpose built astro video cameras don't require any internal "tinkering" and offer more sensitivity and longer exposure/integration times but cost quite a bit more to get into.

So these little inexpensive security cameras are not for everyone but IMHO they can make an effective introduction to the astro video world for many folks.

#458 Moromete

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:38 AM

How do you use such a CCTV as an autoguider with a CG5-GT?

What cables/software/parts are needed with a PC?

How usefull is a CCTV like Samsung or Lntech as an autoguider compared to a Lacerta M-Gen or anything similar as performance?

I have a 50mm F1.4 C-Mount lens from a Bresser 5x50 Night Vision device and a Canon 250mm F5.6 lens for my DSLR.
Can I guide well an 1000mm scope with a Samsung/Lntech + 50mm F1.4 lens or only with the Canon 250mm(I've found an adapter from Canon to C-Mount)?

If such questions were answered elsewhere, please excuse me but I found such answers.

#459 ccs_hello

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:19 AM

Autoguding thread here in CloudyNights V&EAA subforum.

In summary, the answer is "maybe". Not as good as using CCD imager direct-feed to a PC.

P.S. may I suggest to start a new thread on a new topic

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#460 Moromete

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:19 AM

Thx.

So I have to try and see how it works. Problem is I don't know how to connect the PC to CG5-GT mount for guiding with CCTV (I have a frame grabber), respectively what cables are needed and where to put them, in CG5 autoguider port or hand controller.

P.S. Sorry, you are right. Oh, the skies are not clear at all for almost 2 months! :cool:

#461 ccs_hello

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:33 AM

Please use the other guiding thread or start a new thread on this severely off topic discussion.
P.S. not any CCTV videocam, but only on long exposure capable videocam. Also, the autoguide software has to be configured differently to capture in the right time interval. Rather involved and not optimal at all.

#462 svrider1000

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

Here is a quick video I took last night. I sort of took a small part and looped it a few times. I also added an image. These are not stacked at all.

Test Video of Orion Nebula with XLT 150 and LN-300 CCD camera

Attached Files



#463 astrojunkie52

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:48 AM

Hemmi,

I bought the wireless remote. What gets connected to the TX on the camera, the + or - from the dome controller?

Can you be more detailed on what keys controls the OSD?

#464 astrojunkie52

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:03 AM

Played with camera and have wireless remote working. + on dome controller goes to RX on camera, - goes to TX. Go to settings in camera and confirm camera ID is 1 and baud rate should be 9600.

Power up wireless remote and it should display either A001 or P001. Hold down red Setup button for at least 3 seconds and display will change to d 24 which is the current baud rate. Use the right arrow button to scroll through settings until 96 is displayed then press Enter. A001 will now be displayed and 9600 baud rate will be set.

The Iris Open button behaves as Enter key and the arrow buttons behave as Up, Down, Right, and Left.

#465 svrider1000

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

Astro,

What camera is this remote working for. Is this for the larger Sony camera?

#466 mattflastro

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

Astro,

What camera is this remote working for. Is this for the larger Sony camera?

Any camera that uses PElco-D over RS485 . Lntech for example (the large one).
The same codes that are used by the remote could be sent from a computer (if you use a frame grabber ) .
There is software available which allows pc remote control of PElco-D cameras , see this post http://www.cloudynig...Board=VAA&Nu... .

#467 telfish

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:59 AM

Will this work for the smaller camera?

#468 mattflastro

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:17 PM

Will this work for the smaller camera?

The smaller Lntech camera uses the same imaging board as the large one but a different interface board.
It does not have the RS485 connections to the outside world, although its DSP has the necessary firmware.
out of the box the small cam can't be remote controlled over rs485.

#469 astrojunkie52

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:36 AM

LN-320-11673

#470 astrojunkie52

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:50 AM

Any camera that uses PElco-D over RS485 . Lntech for example (the large one).
The same codes that are used by the remote could be sent from a computer (if you use a frame grabber ) .
There is software available which allows pc remote control of PElco-D cameras , see this post http://www.cloudynig...Board=VAA&Nu... .


Matt,

Checked the link. Would you use HyperTerminal to send the hex codes?

The PTZ Controller software also looks like it will do the job. Wish it was less than $69.

#471 mattflastro

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 10:53 AM

Any camera that uses PElco-D over RS485 . Lntech for example (the large one).
The same codes that are used by the remote could be sent from a computer (if you use a frame grabber ) .
There is software available which allows pc remote control of PElco-D cameras , see this post http://www.cloudynig...Board=VAA&Nu... .


Matt,

Checked the link. Would you use HyperTerminal to send the hex codes?

The PTZ Controller software also looks like it will do the job. Wish it was less than $69.

I suppose you could use hyperterminal although I haven't tried.
I used this:
http://www.commfront.../232default.htm

#472 John59

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:04 PM

Here is a snapshot of the spindle galaxy with my unmodded mini NTech. (commercial IR filter is removed)
This was through a C11 with 6.3 reducer at 1024 integration.

Matt I would be interested in how this looks with your modded camera.

Attached Files



#473 mattflastro

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

Here is a snapshot of the spindle galaxy with my unmodded mini NTech. (commercial IR filter is removed)
This was through a C11 with 6.3 reducer at 1024 integration.

Matt I would be interested in how this looks with your modded camera.

For now it would look like the attached picture.
I'm waiting for a good moment .
Just a note about the IR cut filter on the LNtech cameras. There are 2 types of IR cut filters that can be shipped with the cameras, a 670nm and an 850nm .
I believe the 850nm is for low light IR illuminator applications . This one seems ok to not remove . The 670nm should be removed .
In order to figure out which one you have, the simplest thing is to shine a TV or other appliance IR remote at the camera and see either a blinding light (indicating you have the 850nm filter) or nothing (you have the 670nm ).
Some of the cameras came with a version of the OSD menu that allows you to select which IR cut filter you have (the DSP will calculate the white balance slightly differently depending on the selected filter) .

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#474 John59

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:59 PM

Here is a snapshot of the spindle galaxy with my unmodded mini NTech. (commercial IR filter is removed)
This was through a C11 with 6.3 reducer at 1024 integration.

Matt I would be interested in how this looks with your modded camera.

For now it would look like the attached picture.
I'm waiting for a good moment .
Just a note about the IR cut filter on the LNtech cameras. There are 2 types of IR cut filters that can be shipped with the cameras, a 670nm and an 850nm .
I believe the 850nm is for low light IR illuminator applications . This one seems ok to not remove . The 670nm should be removed .
In order to figure out which one you have, the simplest thing is to shine a TV or other appliance IR remote at the camera and see either a blinding light (indicating you have the 850nm filter) or nothing (you have the 670nm ).
Some of the cameras came with a version of the OSD menu that allows you to select which IR cut filter you have (the DSP will calculate the white balance slightly differently depending on the selected filter) .


I hear you Matt. Last winter we had 25 clear nights between Dec and Jan. This this year...1. So far Feb has been better, clear and steady 5 nights so far.

#475 Moromete

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:10 PM

Matt, are you modding the Lntech cameras with Super HAD II or Exview II sensor?

Secondly, are you using the bigger or the smaller Lntech model to put Peltier cooling on it?

PS: Put some dame photos with the modded camera to cool us down a little. ;)






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