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The silence is deafening....

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#351 Pess

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

I would be willing to cede the Mars life argument if no life is detected in the first cave system we evaluate.

Pesse (But if that nightclub is a pop'n you pay up!) Mist

#352 llanitedave

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

So the Universe may be colonized already but planets are looked at solely as too much a pain in the butt to colonize and not worth the energy to extract resources from.


That's my working hypothesis! :ubetcha:

#353 Mister T

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:12 AM

http://www.npr.org/2...scientists-m...

could be some good stuff :jump: :jump: :jump:

I'm guessing life on Mars moves at 101% of c :shameonyou:

#354 Pess

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

http://www.npr.org/2...scientists-m...

could be some good stuff :jump: :jump: :jump:

I'm guessing life on Mars moves at 101% of c :shameonyou:


Pesse (That's just a tachy idea...) Mist :p

#355 Hikari

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:02 PM

The silence may actually be an indication of intelligent life--they did not bother inventing TV. Which would also mean they kept their intelligence. They may also be introverts where trying to find everyone in the universe and then worrying on how to get there or communicate with them was not a high priority.

#356 Rick Woods

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:41 AM

The silence may actually be an indication of intelligent life--they did not bother inventing TV. Which would also mean they kept their intelligence. They may also be introverts where trying to find everyone in the universe and then worrying on how to get there or communicate with them was not a high priority.


Good thought. They probably realize that once you get to know the neighbors, pretty soon they'll be wanting to borrow your stuff and not return it.

#357 InterStellarGuy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.

#358 Qwickdraw

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:13 AM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.



One question...
Have you heard any signal source by any means?
Didnt think so :foreheadslap:

#359 InterStellarGuy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.



One question...
Have you heard any signal source by any means?
Didnt think so :foreheadslap:


Signal source? Of course we haven't gotten any signals. That's my point, our technology is severely limited by the type of signals we can even detect.

We can only detect signals that are directly beamed to us, and at a certain frequency, and only if we are listening.

Contrary to what some may think, SETI is *NOT* capable of detecting radio leakage. We couldnt detect say, for example, the TV broad casts of aliens living on a world around Alpha Centauri AB.

#360 Qwickdraw

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:41 PM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.



One question...
Have you heard any signal source by any means?
Didnt think so :foreheadslap:


Signal source? Of course we haven't gotten any signals. That's my point, our technology is severely limited by the type of signals we can even detect.

We can only detect signals that are directly beamed to us, and at a certain frequency, and only if we are listening.

Contrary to what some may think, SETI is *NOT* capable of detecting radio leakage. We couldnt detect say, for example, the TV broad casts of aliens living on a world around Alpha Centauri AB.


I was only suggesting that is the reason it is considered "silence"

be well

#361 Andy Taylor

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

Signal source? Of course we haven't gotten any signals. That's my point, our technology is severely limited by the type of signals we can even detect.

We can only detect signals that are directly beamed to us, and at a certain frequency, and only if we are listening.

Contrary to what some may think, SETI is *NOT* capable of detecting radio leakage. We couldnt detect say, for example, the TV broad casts of aliens living on a world around Alpha Centauri AB.


Ho Hum. never anything good on the telly... :lol:

#362 FirstSight

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

The simple explanation for the silence is likely that:
1) although intelligent life is, in aggregate, relatively abundant throughout the universe;
2) it is nevertheless extremely sparsely distributed, with the mean distance between intelligent civilizations so vast as to attenuate any signals therefrom far below any practical ability to distinguish them from background noise.

This sparse distribution may even be a feature, rather than a bug, which contains any pathologically destructive aspects of life in one location from invasively affecting another. It also contains more technologically advanced civilizations from predatory intrusions on less advanced civilizations, e.g. Columbus on the Native Americans.

#363 Pess

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.


You are missing the point.

The Universe has been around long enough that other civilizations would exhibit a broad spectrum of technology with some being more advanced, others less advanced than us.

So why are the more advanced ones so introverted?

My feeling is that we are so far behind the evolutionary curve of advanced space faring races that we are not worth contacting. It is only our hubris that makes man think he is the end all product of evolution.

Could you imagine man trying to contact the dinosaurs on a planet a million years behind us in evolution?

Man is still evolving. We have artificial hips, ears, knees etc. Someday the entire body will be replaced (TP=Total prosthesis) and will man still be man?

AI could come to dominate. Perhaps man will rapidly become a foot note?

We look for the first cell. Perhaps space faring races see the invention of the transistor back in Bell labs as their equivalent of a 'first cell' progeny.


Pesse (We got a long way to go and a short time to get there.) Mist

#364 Qwickdraw

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:47 AM

This sparse distribution may even be a feature, rather than a bug, which contains any pathologically destructive aspects of life in one location from invasively affecting another. It also contains more technologically advanced civilizations from predatory intrusions on less advanced civilizations, e.g. Columbus on the Native Americans.


It almost sounds like you are suggesting this "sparseness" is a necessary evolutionary step. If so I would suggest that even this feature as you describe it would not have had enough time to evolve unless there is an intelligent design already implemented in the life process to allow for this.

#365 InterStellarGuy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.


You are missing the point.

The Universe has been around long enough that other civilizations would exhibit a broad spectrum of technology with some being more advanced, others less advanced than us.

So why are the more advanced ones so introverted?

My feeling is that we are so far behind the evolutionary curve of advanced space faring races that we are not worth contacting. It is only our hubris that makes man think he is the end all product of evolution.

Could you imagine man trying to contact the dinosaurs on a planet a million years behind us in evolution?

Man is still evolving. We have artificial hips, ears, knees etc. Someday the entire body will be replaced (TP=Total prosthesis) and will man still be man?

AI could come to dominate. Perhaps man will rapidly become a foot note?

We look for the first cell. Perhaps space faring races see the invention of the transistor back in Bell labs as their equivalent of a 'first cell' progeny.


Pesse (We got a long way to go and a short time to get there.) Mist


Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.

#366 Pess

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:01 PM

Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.


Agreed. 'Our' discovery of life elsewhere will happen when our technology gets to the point where we can run spectroscopic analysis of distant planets atmospheres.

Even simple plant life will sustain an oxygen atmosphere that would not otherwise exist.

Pesse (with our luck a first contact alien would have a lisp and the farmer thought he heard, "Take me to your Weeder...") Mist

#367 llanitedave

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:11 PM


This sparse distribution may even be a feature, rather than a bug, which contains any pathologically destructive aspects of life in one location from invasively affecting another. It also contains more technologically advanced civilizations from predatory intrusions on less advanced civilizations, e.g. Columbus on the Native Americans.


It almost sounds like you are suggesting this "sparseness" is a necessary evolutionary step. If so I would suggest that even this feature as you describe it would not have had enough time to evolve unless there is an intelligent design already implemented in the life process to allow for this.


Genetic isolation is a factor in nearly all evolutionary change. I don't see how isolation would have required intelligence since it's the default value in our kind of vast spacetime.

#368 llanitedave

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.


You are missing the point.

The Universe has been around long enough that other civilizations would exhibit a broad spectrum of technology with some being more advanced, others less advanced than us.

So why are the more advanced ones so introverted?

My feeling is that we are so far behind the evolutionary curve of advanced space faring races that we are not worth contacting. It is only our hubris that makes man think he is the end all product of evolution.

Could you imagine man trying to contact the dinosaurs on a planet a million years behind us in evolution?

Man is still evolving. We have artificial hips, ears, knees etc. Someday the entire body will be replaced (TP=Total prosthesis) and will man still be man?

AI could come to dominate. Perhaps man will rapidly become a foot note?

We look for the first cell. Perhaps space faring races see the invention of the transistor back in Bell labs as their equivalent of a 'first cell' progeny.


Pesse (We got a long way to go and a short time to get there.) Mist


Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.


Again, however, this assumes that any life we find is planet-bound. This might only be true for the more primitive phases of life, up to and including our own level of technology, but not so much for technology even slightly beyond ours.

#369 Jarad

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:19 PM

Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.



I dunno - I think it will be a while before we can detect signatures of small percentages of chemicals in the atmosphere of a planet around Alpha Centauri, and I think that the range on such detection will be limited to the nearest stars, if any. They aren't emitting photons themselves, they absorb photons, which means we will be relying on detecting absorption lines in spectra of the tiny fraction of starlight that passes through the planet's atmosphere against the background of the star's full light. That's a pretty miniscule signal to examine...

Jarad

#370 Pess

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.



I dunno - I think it will be a while before we can detect signatures of small percentages of chemicals in the atmosphere of a planet around Alpha Centauri, and I think that the range on such detection will be limited to the nearest stars, if any. They aren't emitting photons themselves, they absorb photons, which means we will be relying on detecting absorption lines in spectra of the tiny fraction of starlight that passes through the planet's atmosphere against the background of the star's full light. That's a pretty miniscule signal to examine...

Jarad



We've already done it.

http://vega.lpl.ariz...da/extrass.html

Theoretically, we only have to measure the parent stars spectral signature and then subtract that from a planet transit/star signature leaving just the planets spectral lines.

Easier said then done. But lets say you average several transits over the years and thus amplify the weak planet signature.

We do this in medicine all the time and can read electrical activity of small groups of brain neurons through the skull. By repeatedly measuring the same signal we can make the brain activity rise up out of the background noise.

Just need more sensitive measurements which are within our technological reach.

Pesse (I've already filed a homestead claim for a parcel on Gliese 581 e) Mist

#371 Jarad

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

We detected the signature of hydrogen in a presumed gas giant made up of 98% hydrogen.

That's a lot easier than detecting a few parts per million of CFC's in the atmosphere of a small rocky planet like earth.

Jarad

#372 JohnMurphyRN

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

This thread is essentially an attempt to answer the Fermi Paradox.

Briefly paraphrased: The Drake Equation seems to indicate that there should be multiple intelligent species. We don't see any. So where are they?

First off, the only thing we know for certain is that all of the values in the Drake Equation are nonzero (after all, we exist). With values just a slight bit higher than zero and an arbitrarily large input value for number of stars we get an end result that's still a large number.

1) Perhaps we're thinking too much in terms of life-as-we-know-it; what about life-as-we-don't-know-it? Consider life with an extremely dilated timesense and lifespan. Would they have anything to say to us mayflies? Or the converse: Would an extremely fast thinking and short living lifeform have any interest in us?

2) What impetus do disparate organisms have to communicate with one another? Advanced lifeforms on Earth all reproduce sexually, neccesitating interaction. Perhaps this is rare or unique to us.

3) Perhaps our circumstances are more rare than we think. The oversize active core and plate tectonics producing oceans with continents may be harder to come by than imagined. Perhaps most worlds in the goldilocks zones are nearly entirely covered in shallow seas. You can get life there, even advanced intelligent life. But technology starts with fire which is **** hard to do underwater. The skies may be full of worlds teeming with intelligent octupoids just waiting for us to come talk to them.

4) The more specially evolved and adapted a species is to its niche, the poorer it is able to adapt to different environments. Perhaps the sky is full of noncommunicating species unable to relocate outside of their environment.

5) Postulate an intelligent species that "sees" by echolocation and communicates via pheromones. Would be difficult to talk to them, and these are things we can imagine. What about the things we can't imagine?

Or....we're missing something basic. That's my suspicion.

#373 Pess

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

We detected the signature of hydrogen in a presumed gas giant made up of 98% hydrogen.

That's a lot easier than detecting a few parts per million of CFC's in the atmosphere of a small rocky planet like earth.

Jarad


Yup, but my point was it HAS been done. We just need to improve our equipment and technique for finer resolution.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will eventually develop techniques that can filter out a stars light leaving us with only the planets reflected light to analyze.

Does anyone really believe we will never be able to visualize Earth size planets near us?

Heck, technological proposals for such technology already exist in the literature.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov...p?R=20120011975

Pesse (I see it in our grand-kids lifetimes) Mist

#374 Pess

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:28 AM


1) Perhaps we're thinking too much in terms of life-as-we-know-it; what about life-as-we-don't-know-it? Consider life with an extremely dilated timesense and lifespan. Would they have anything to say to us mayflies? Or the converse: Would an extremely fast thinking and short living lifeform have any interest in us?


Interesting speculation. We live life at 1 sec/sec. But what of a lifeform that lives at 10sec/sec? Or an AI that is capable of living life at 4months/sec relative to us?


3) Perhaps our circumstances are more rare than we think. The oversize active core and plate tectonics producing oceans with continents may be harder to come by than imagined. Perhaps most worlds in the goldilocks zones are nearly entirely covered in shallow seas. You can get life there, even advanced intelligent life. But technology starts with fire which is **** hard to do underwater. The skies may be full of worlds teeming with intelligent octupoids just waiting for us to come talk to them.


An intelligent species could exploit any environment. Just like humans exploit space and oceans, a water based sentiment species could exploit extra-oceanonic niches simply by building artificial islands. It might take them longer to evolve to this capability but they would get there. Heck, all they'd need is a simple suit to encase them (not the hugely complex space/ocean diving suits humans require to exploit their additional niches).

4) The more specially evolved and adapted a species is to its niche, the poorer it is able to adapt to different environments. Perhaps the sky is full of noncommunicating species unable to relocate outside of their environment.


Sentient and advanced species can adapt the niche to them, not vise-versa. Humans live in the arctic, we live atop oceans, we live in outer-space etc etc


5) Postulate an intelligent species that "sees" by echolocation and communicates via pheromones. Would be difficult to talk to them, and these are things we can imagine. What about the things we can't imagine?


Any form of communication can be translated into an electrical signal just as humans covert sound waves into electrical patterns.


Or....we're missing something basic. That's my suspicion.


Pesse (Probably. I suspect any visitors are so far advanced to us that they don't bother. ) Mist

#375 Mister T

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

Like this?

http://www.ebaumswor...o/watch/988975/


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