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Borderline Mystics

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#76 killdabuddha

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:26 PM

...only the door...


Huxley? Doors of Perception? :question:

Or Rumi maybe?

"I've lived on the lip of bewilderment,
wanting to know reasons,
knocking on a door.
It opens.
and all these times
I've been knocking from inside."

Same same probly.

#77 csrlice12

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

Jim Morrison???

#78 killdabuddha

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:40 PM


The book and title were what the Doors lifted for their band.

#79 Paco_Grande

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:57 PM

“in the universal womb that is boundless space
all forms of matter and energy occur
as flux of the four elements,
but all are empty forms, absent in reality:
all phenomena, arising in pure mind, are like that.

just as dream is a part of sleep,
unreal in its arising,
so all and everything is pure mind,
never separated from it,
and without substance or attribute.

experience is neither mind nor anything but mind;
it is a vivid display of emptiness, like magical illusion,
in the very moment inconceivable and unutterable.
all experience arising in the mind,
at its inception, know it as emptiness!”
~ Longchenpa

#80 cheapersleeper

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:54 AM

I have no interest in driving wedges anywhere but have to say that I am apparently hard wired NOT to ever feel things of a spiritual, mystical, or supernatural nature. The fact that I don't experience them certainly does not PROVE that they don't exist. At the same time, the fact that various altered states of consciousness can be reached reliably by many different methods does tend to make me question whether there is anything at work other than a common quality of the human mind.

As for the poetry and the prose, I do not see any reason why it cannot be appreciated for it's beauty without trying to tie it into something bigger.

Regards,
Brad

#81 killdabuddha

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:52 AM

As for the poetry and the prose, I do not see any reason why it cannot be appreciated for it's beauty without trying to tie it into something bigger.

Regards,
Brad


As one of the post-ers of summa the poetry, I can say that I'm not doin it to "tie into sumthin bigger." To the contrary, I tend toward deconstruction and dialectics. And for the cited works themselves, I welcome any1 to show me "sumthin bigger" in them, unless by bigger you mean either the cosmos referent (but blame cosmology for its size?) or the infinite space between the words. Moreover, kindly demonstrate what are "beauty's parameters" so that we may cease and desist in our offense against the finer sensibilities. Or maybe tell us what you do find beautiful in any of it? I, for one, would be as happy to hear about the beauty of the experience as the mystical aspect of it (whatever that is)...anything to "in-spire" (breathe life into) what we do or which otherwise allows our personal expanse to reach as far as the space we spy. Hopefully "inspire" isn't on the banned-words list of "culture" yet. How about awe, wonder, sublime? Preferably anything that is not susceptible to mere "point-counterpoint" dogma or strict rationalism. Or is it that we're expected to love our family out of sheer duty but we're otherwise forbidden to deeply experience it or talk about it? Got milk? Maybe a jackboot? Most would prefer a bootjack, I suspect, but I could be wrong. I wonder...when Edwin Hubble realized what he was seein, did he feel bigger? Or smaller? Was he contracted or expanded? Maybe it was sumthin in between and not so easily expressed, even for a lawyer...

"At the last dim horizon, we search among ghostly errors of observations for landmarks that are scarcely more substantial. The search will continue. The urge is older than history. It is not satisfied and it will not be oppressed."

At least he tried. And if that search is considered in an outward-looking aspect, then the inward aspect need not be suppressed. One could just as easily make the case that the outward is nuthin without the inward, logically, lexicographically, ontologically, etc., etc. And if mysticism is simply the merging of outward and inward, a larger Venn diagram, or the experience of the dissolution of these artifices, so be it. Just because a thing (like experience) is "indefensible" doesn't mean that it's not real. Or are we all livin in a courtroom?

#82 Paco_Grande

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

I have no interest in driving wedges anywhere but have to say that I am apparently hard wired NOT to ever feel things of a spiritual, mystical, or supernatural nature. The fact that I don't experience them certainly does not PROVE that they don't exist. At the same time, the fact that various altered states of consciousness can be reached reliably by many different methods does tend to make me question whether there is anything at work other than a common quality of the human mind.

As for the poetry and the prose, I do not see any reason why it cannot be appreciated for it's beauty without trying to tie it into something bigger.

Regards,
Brad


Indeed. There are many frauds within the world of the mystics. In fact, I would suggest that most are frauds. Some are nuts and some are dangerous.

That said, the true world of the mystics has nothing to do with the supernatural or fleeting phenomena. Here's a rather long quote from Carlos Castaneda during a discussion with his fictitious Toltec nagual mystic, don Juan:

The essence of whatever don Juan said at the beginning of my apprenticeship is encapsulated in the abstract nature of the quotations selected from the first book, The Teachings of Don Juan. At the time of the events described in that book, don Juan spoke a great deal about allies, power plants, Mescalito, the little smoke, the wind, the spirits of rivers and mountains, the spirit of the chaparral, etc., etc.

Later on when I questioned him about his emphasis on those elements, and why he wasn’t using them anymore, he admitted unabashedly that at the beginning of my apprenticeship, he had gone into all that pseudo-Indian shaman rigmarole for my benefit. I was flabbergasted. I wondered how he could make such a statement, which was obviously not true. He had really meant what he said about those elements of his world, and I was certainly the man who could attest to the veracity of his words and moods. “Don’t take it so seriously,” he said, laughing. “It was very enjoyable for me to get into all that *BLEEP*, and it was even more enjoyable because I knew that I was doing it for your benefit.”

“For my benefit, don Juan? What kind of aberration is this?” “Yes, for your benefit. I tricked you by holding your attention on items of your world which held a profound fascination for you, and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker. “All I needed was to get your undivided attention. But how could I have done that when you had such an undisciplined spirit? You yourself told me time and time again that you stayed with me because you found what I said about the world fascinating. What you didn’t know how to express was that the fascination that you felt was based on the fact that you vaguely recognized every element I was talking about. You thought that the vagueness was, of course, shamanism, and you went for it, meaning you stayed.”

“Do you do this to everybody, don Juan?” “Not to everybody, because not everybody comes to me, and above all, I’m not interested in everybody. I was and I am interested in you, you alone. My teacher, the nagual Julian, tricked me in a similar way. He tricked me with my sensuality and greed. He promised to get me all the beautiful women who surrounded him, and he promised to cover me with gold. He promised me a fortune, and I fell for it. All the shamans of my lineage had been tricked that way, since time immemorial. The shamans of my lineage are not teachers or gurus. They don’t give a fig about teaching their knowledge. They want heirs to their knowledge, not people vaguely interested in their knowledge for intellectual reasons.”



I'm with killabuddha on this. I see the traditions of the mystics main value in their methods of deconstructive inquiry into the nature of the world around us. Traditions such as Tao and some schools of Buddhism, or the philosophical tradition of Madhyamika (see Wiki.)

The methods used are often called "mystical" and it's important to remember they are methods designed to reach a particular result. As I said earlier, people often mistake the method as what's of value instead of the result. The quote above deals with this head on. Hope it helps!

#83 mountain monk

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

Phil,

Thanks for reminding me of Carlos. Re method and result: Many are called, few are chosen. Based on fifty-six years of Zen study in both the Soto and Renzai traditions, I say: Zen is not a mystical practice nor are it's results (whatever they might be) best described as mystical. I will not comment further.

Dark skies.

Jack

#84 killdabuddha

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:11 AM

Phil,

Thanks for reminding me of Carlos. Re method and result: Many are called, few are chosen. Based on fifty-six years of Zen study in both the Soto and Renzai traditions, I say: Zen is not a mystical practice nor are it's results (whatever they might be) best described as mystical. I will not comment further.

Dark skies.

Jack


The trouble with Zen is that it's like tryin to sell water next to a river. I'll defer to Thomas Merton, "Mystics and Zen Masters," regarding Monk's guess-timation of what Zen is probably not best described as. The description at Amazon

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0374520011

is even uncannily what Paco seems to have been tryin to express:

"Thomas Merton was recognized as one of those rare Western minds that are entirely at home with the Zen experience. In this collection, he discusses diverse philosophical concepts-early monasticism, Russian Orthodox spirituality, the Shakers, and Zen Buddhism-with characteristic Western directness. Merton not only studied these traditions from the outside but grasped them by empathy and living participation from within. 'All these studies,' wrote Merton, 'are united by one central concern: to understand various ways in which men of different traditions have conceived the meaning and method of the 'way' which leads to the highest levels of metaphysical awareness."

I also thought that I sensed sumthin of this in Otto's original post. Where did that go?

#85 Paco_Grande

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

... 'All these studies,' wrote Merton, 'are united by one central concern: to understand various ways in which men of different traditions have conceived the meaning and method of the 'way' which leads to the highest levels of metaphysical awareness."


I agree with Merton. But they are not higher levels of awareness, just less cloudy, since mind does not change, just our view of it - or better put, our experience of it. These teachings require a genuine teacher with integrity...

Nagarjuna - “True knowledge is a virtue of the talented, But harmful to those without discernment. Spring water free of impurity, entering the ocean, becomes undrinkable.”



Zen only appears mystical to the western eye because of its practices. Westerners can't fathom sitting in front of a wall for hours, or hearing the utterance of a koan, or a master whacking a snoozing monk. :lol:

#86 killdabuddha

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:25 AM

:flower:

#87 killdabuddha

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:01 PM

No kyosaku required,

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=YG9P7JWtxhw

unless we believe Stanley Kubric

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ML1OZCHixR0

I don't choose. The monkeys do

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=1_6c8CKpXQI



Cheers

#88 Paco_Grande

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Awesome Posted Image

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