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4 Inch Reflector... a fixer upper. Is it worth it?

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#26 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:27 PM

You can paint these tubes and parts without concern about damaging their nostalgia. They are quite easy to strip all the parts off of (just a few minutes), sand or chemical strip the tube, and repaint with a rattle can. This tube (in front) is a Palomar Jr. which is the kind you linked to above.

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#27 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

Here it is with the primary back in, and OTA mounting bolts. Everything has been replaced with stainless steal hardware.

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#28 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

The Palomar commonly had a motor drive. This is one redone, with a little buffing.
The Anchor variety did not come with a drive as far as I know.

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#29 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

Repainting can be done without taking out the crinkle or pebble finish. These Palomar legs were done with Rustolium spray can. The word "EDSCORP" was highlighted in white by dabbing with a dipped cloth.

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#30 apfever

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

Here's three more Palomars. Two on pier (one basket case), and one on wood tripod. Edmund did make an actual Palomar Jr. on a wood tripod, without a drive. This was done during the regular column type pier production. These were advertised for the nostalgic look. YOURS is not one of these. Yours is older than the Palomars.

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#31 trainsktg

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:10 PM

I like your idea of painting the 'Edscorp' in the white.

In the topic that was previously linked by Tahoe', there is an Anchor telescope shown in Lew's black-and-white group photo about half way down.

Keith

#32 TahoeNoob

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

I bought a cheap EQ mount last night. (I think it'll be sturdier than the Edmund EQ mount that I've got, and I also wanted something with slo-mo knobs.) I probably over paid, but the seller is throwing in a bunch of extra stuff that hopefully I'll be able to use. (Dovetail plates, low profile 1.25 focuser, some eyepieces. I hope it's ok to drill some holes in the tube!) I'm sure it's not high quality stuff, but it's a place for me to start. It'll be stuff that I can learn on! Right now, all I have is a pair of binoculars. (I guess when I bought that mount, last night, I decided to fix this scope up!)

Shortly after Thanksgiving I'll be taking delivery of a used Orion XT10i dobsonian. I'm going to need something smaller! Winters can get pretty crazy here! I'm going to need something that I can set up, and transport, quickly and easily. I'm not sure this Edmund reflector is going to fit the bill forever. (The primary mirror DOES look good though, so we'll see.)

Some of you love your original scopes. (This is mine.) I have very mixed feelings about mine. On the one hand, I still remember seeing Saturn for the first time though it... on the other hand, this was a very wobbly, and frustrating, scope for me! I was 12 when I got it, and the tube was held onto its mount with bicycle innertubes! I wasn't old enough, or sophisticated enough, to fix it. As a kid, I was like... *BLEEP*! It was frustrating! In, at least, in some sense... the experience turned me off of astronomy for all these years! :bawling: (So, yea, parents... if you're going to buy your kid a scope, buy one that's functional! :smirk:))

Long term... I'd like to get some sort of classic refractor. (Maybe in the 76mm size.) I've been looking at the old Sears/Tasco listings. (All this "Circle T" and "Diamond Z" stuff has me pretty confused. I'm not even sure if it should be important to me!) If a good deal comes along, I might jump at it... but I doubt I'd know a good deal if it jumped out of the bushes and attacked me!

In the meantime, I've learned my lesson. I'm not going to get rid of, or destroy, any more hardware! (apfever, the legs are yours, AFAIC. If you want them soon, let me know... otherwise it might take some time for me to get organized. Before I send them to you, I'm going to trace their outline. Maybe, if I decide to, I can make another set, and include an eyepiece holder to make things more stable!)

Thanks for the photos! There's a lot of good information in them! They give me ideas, and a goal to work towards! :)

EDIT: Hmmmmm... I guess you can't say that here. Sorry. :roflmao:

#33 apfever

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

no worries. The polite euphamism for fecal material ( the c word)is where most noobs earn there BLEEP experience. Me too. :smirk:

I'll get back to you in a PM (private message) on the legs. I have an outreach star party tonight. Supposed to have a JR. High class come out. Yahoo, maybe I'll take a big boy.

#34 TahoeNoob

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

Actually, what tripped me up was the three letter acronym for "WhaT a Farce." (I shall be more careful.)

#35 tim53

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

Whiskey tango foxtrot??

#36 wfj

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:34 PM

The Anchor variety did not come with a drive as far as I know.

Neil,
I'm not so sure. I acquired a 8" with what appears to be a Anchor mount, and it has a clock drive.

Note that the castings don't have any markings like the Edmund ones.

I seem to remember that these with the red knobs (90 degrees to side on polar axis) were in the Jaegers catalog in Sky and Tel back in the 70's.

By the way, does anyone know about the wooden legs for these?

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#37 Joe Cepleur

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

Don't drill the tube to attach it to the mount. Buy or make rings. Rings allow rotating the tube in the mount, as is necessary with an equatorial mount if you hope to keep the eyepiece in a comfortable location as the scope tracks the skies.

Trademarks are essential, but you need not rush to learn them. Just post questions here when scopes are available for sale. You might learn, for example, that the shiny, pristine antique available across town were judged to be likely extremely fine if it were a Circle-T, but nothing special if it were a Diamond-Z. This can occur even in the same model. Towa and Tanzutsu both built what was sold as the Jason 313, but only the Circle-T is widely regarded as a poor-man's fine small refractor.

In buying, don't fuss too much over exact aperture class as marked on the objective. 76mm, 80mm... pretty much the same beast. Look for the quality of the scope versus its price instead. Better to test and buy a good 80mm than waste money on a lesser 90mm sight unseen.

#38 apfever

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:00 PM


The Anchor variety did not come with a drive as far as I know.

Neil,
I'm not so sure. I acquired a 8" with what appears to be a Anchor mount, and it has a clock drive.

Note that the castings don't have any markings like the Edmund ones.

I seem to remember that these with the red knobs (90 degrees to side on polar axis) were in the Jaegers catalog in Sky and Tel back in the 70's.

By the way, does anyone know about the wooden legs for these?


Bill,

I was refering only to the 4.25" reflectors for drives.

Hey! I'd sure like more info on the mount you pictured. The exact same kind of counterweight is here, sold as an Edmund, but it didn't match anything Edmund. Do you have any more info on anchoring down the mount ID? I believe the mount you pictured is for a 6" reflector. At least it is comparable to my Edmund 6". My Edmund 8" is a monster brute compared to my 6".
The 6" has a 1" diameter counter shaft, and the 8" is 1.5" diameter.

#39 wfj

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

Hey! I'd sure like more info on the mount you pictured.

Love to give it to you Neil, but I've taken it apart to components and not found a single mark (other than the casting "gates", of course). The Cramer motor has a data of 9 77.

The exact same kind of counterweight is here, sold as an Edmund, but it didn't match anything Edmund.

Yes sir. One has a "1", the other a "2", they are otherwise identical and match the rest of the mount.

Do you have any more info on anchoring down the mount ID?

Only an absence of information. That is, all the marks on an Edmund mount, every last one of them are gone, yet the dimensions are exact to the castings of an Edmund.

I believe the mount you pictured is for a 6" reflector.

Yes sir, a 1", like the 6" sold by Edmund, down to the same mounting hardware.

My Edmund 8" is a monster brute compared to my 6".
The 6" has a 1" diameter counter shaft, and the 8" is 1.5" diameter.

Exactly. The 8" it came with is a home built with an f/5 mirror. I had speculated it might have come from Edmund, but there aren't the usual marks, and it isn't coated by Pancro. The cell was an Edmund.

The reason I'm bringing this up here is the Anchor connection.

When I measured the radius of the saddle, its for a tube diameter more appropriate for a 4" scope than an 6".

I often wondered if the 1" mount was what the Anchor 4.25" scope had originally - would have made it rock solid. And then perhaps they came up with a "discount" mount later.

So this might be what bothered the OP from the beginning.

#40 TahoeNoob

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

Ok, so I got this new tripod and mount that I plan to use with my Edmund. It needs a little bit of work, but I don't think it's going to be too bad. The main thing I need to do is take apart the EQ mount and figure out why it's so snug. Also, the DEC axis binds when I try to rotate it in the clockwise direction. (I'm guessing there's some sort of cam in there that's too tight.)

Am I going to have to grease anything upon reassembly? If so, what type of grease should I use? (I have white lithium grease, and other grease too... in my bicycle tool box.)

If there's anything I should know before I take this head apart, now would be a good time to let me know. :)

Anyway, here are some pictures:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#41 Joe Cepleur

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

The mount likely sticks due to old, gummy grease. Clean it thoroughly, and replace with Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease. It's perfect in cold climates, because it works low temperatures.

The open worm gear must be coated *not* with the Mobile 1. Use dampening grease to prevent backlash. Someone should pipe in about the right brand and weight.

#42 TahoeNoob

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:02 AM

I got it almost completely taken apart. The old grease is all gummy. I don't have any of that Mobile 1, so I'll clean everything up and then sit tight until I get some. (I can't use White Lithium Grease?) I assume it's ok to take the old grease off with acetone. I don't see how that would hurt anything, except for maybe the rubber gaskets which I won't clean that way.

I noticed that the RA's exposed worm gear was being run dry. Is that a problem? I'd rather continue to run it dry, if it won't hurt anything. That way I won't get grease on my hands every time I touch it! If I use grease, what type of grease should be used to prevent backlash?

I'm not completely sure how the Dec slow-mo works yet. There's no worm gear. It's got a spring loaded mechanism. Maybe it's got limited travel. I'll have to take a closer look at it tomorrow. Whatever's going on, it seems very strange.

I haven't taken apart the RA slow-mo stuff yet. It needs to be taken apart too. It's sticky. The correct tool to use would be a small spanner wrench, which I don't have. Hmmmmm! I might be able to get it apart with a pair of vice grips and a paper towel used for padding. (I don't want to take a screw driver and whack it!)

Dec slow-mo:
Posted Image

RA:
Posted Image

#43 TahoeNoob

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:12 AM

Does it have to be Mobile One, or is any motor oil ok? How about the weight? Doe it matter? I'm also still waiting to find out what type of grease prevents backlash, although I'd like to avoid putting grease on exposed parts, if I can.

The mount is all cleaned up. All I have to do is line up my lube, and I'll be ready to start reassembling.

#44 TahoeNoob

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

Hmmmm, "Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease!" I guess that's not the same thing as motor oil. :foreheadslap:

#45 Joe Cepleur

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

Hmmmm, "Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease!" I guess that's not the same thing as motor oil. :foreheadslap:


Yes; GOOD CATCH -- "Grease," not "motor oil."

I'll let someone who knows better than me expound on dampening grease for the worm, what type or whether to skip it. You could always finish everything else in the mean time. This would be the last step.

#46 TahoeNoob

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:24 AM

I found a short thread on lubes: Short Thread on Lubes

The two lubes that I saw mentioned are Super-Lube and Krytox. Not sure if that's what you put on the worm gear though.

I guess it would be nice if I could find what I need at Ace Hardware, or maybe Home Depot.

#47 desertrefugee

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:53 AM

It certainly wouldn't be a disaster if standard non-damping grease were used. You might even find the backlash adjustable enough to be perfectly usable. And hang tight :)

#48 Bill Griffith

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

Tahoe,
A belated welcome!! Great thread.

Dupont Krytox has the consitency of engine assy. grease. May be considered on the slightly expensive side for the amount received though.

Krytox is a standard (personal opinion)for space flight hardware applications it will stay lubrious in extreme temp. deltas and is approved in coating (mirror) chambers because of it's null outgassing characteristics.

Hence, I use Krytox on focusers collimation screws; anything NEAR optics. :shrug: ( my experience)

On mounting equip. I still use an ENGINE assy. grease on shafts, washers, bearings and worm gears because of the absence of tolerance influence.

I especially like ENGINE assy. grease in an exposed worm/spur gear application because of the very thin film application. The ENGINE assy. grease wicks/wipes off easily with alcohol and a wipe. Then reapplied easily. I change out exposed worm/spur grease frequently. Enclosed worm/spur is a different matter

ANY grease is a great grit magnet.

We all probably find our favorites and there is no absolute right or wrong, just personal preferences.

Bill

#49 bremms

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:09 PM

Krytox is good stuff. It's a Flouroploymer grease/ lube with a couple of different thickness base stocks. It is vacuum rated and comes in a range of thicknesses, with or without EP modifiers and anti corrosion. I have a tube of GPL 205 , GPL226 and another at work that might be GPL225.
DO NOT get it on optics, it is very hard to remove. Ordinary solvents won't work on Krytox.

#50 bremms

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:14 PM

I like Slick 50 grease for worm gears. Its tacky and says in place really well. Unfortunately, it isn't made anymore. Mobil 1 grease is good or go to a Grainger and get some NLGI 2 or 3 tacky grease.






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