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#51 Special Ed

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:19 AM

I think I understand what you are confused about. One source I read says the the EZ extends to about 7° north and south of the Jovian equator.

The jets along the south edge of the NEB (+8-5 degrees latitude)and the north edge of the SEB (-7 degrees latitude) both flow eastward (prograde) and gradually diminish in speed towards the middle of both belts (this drop off in wind speed causes rifts in the NEB according to Peach).

By the time we reach the north edge of the NEB or the south edge of the SEB, the jets have reversed and are flowing westward (retrograde).

One way to remember this is that eastward jets are on the equator side of the belts and westward jets are the polar side of the belts.

You're probably waiting for me to get to the point so here it is. The two Systems have to do with the differential rotation speed of Jupiter, not the wind speed or direction. As you know, System I rotation time is about 5 minutes faster than System II for a full rotation. So maybe the BAA is counting those east flowing jets bordering the EZ and the two main belts as System II because they have been observed to rotate slower than the EZ.

Because we're talking about something with no hard surface there probably isn't a distinct border. When I read this material on the BAA website, I see the words about and approximately from time to time.

Maybe someone like Paul Abel (or Carlos Hernandez) could provide more insight.

One result of this discussion--I usually only include the System II longitude in my drawings. I think I'll start including System I as well. :)

#52 Asbytec

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

Sure, the EZ and the equatorial belt boundaries do have the faster rotation. And maybe that is the key distinction. I included, as you surmised, a bit more latitude because of the wind direction being the same. In fact, referencing their chart below.

I was not sure if the slower speeds north and south of the EZ were that distinctive in rotational time. Surely winds blowing the opposite direction would, so I made that leap of faith. It's interesting both NEBs and SEBn bordering the EZ rotate at over 220 degrees/month (apparently along with the EZ) while NEBn and SEBs slow considerably and change direction. To change that much in a month would require a pretty large change each day. So, yea, not having read it anywhere, that's how I came about it.

Surely the boundaries are not defined exactly. Makes sense, though. Thanks, interesting and a bit confusing, as is why prograde EZ winds blow in the opposite direction of it's rotation. (Actually, the DL2 figures are, of course, proportional to the wind speed and direction over Jupiter's longitude.)

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#53 stray1

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:51 AM

Chop: Thanks for your comment. Yes, I believe that my eye is beginning to catch on to what the 90mm is showing me. :)

Ed & Norme: Great discussion on the systems! Now we at least have a working knowledge of what is meant by Systems I and II in terms of belts and zones. System III designates the rotation of the planet’s core (I think) and would probably be of little value to us (well, to me at any rate).

Anyway, this weekend has been a bust observing-wise; been overcast and raining/drizzling for the past three days. The sketch below was drawn from a photograph and is another practice drill. I focused specifically on the belts and zones south of the SEB simply because when viewed through my scope this area is a big blank spot. I generated the sketch starting from the SPR and working my way north.

Hopefully this will help me to draw a mental map of the region so that the next time I have it in my EP something will jump out at me similar to the way that the festoons became apparent once I knew what I was looking for. If not, there are always barges and chevrons to seek out.

Sketch was done on printer paper using HB/ 2H pencils and a kneaded art gum eraser. Put no time limit on it. Took about half an hour.

:grin:

-stray-

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#54 stray1

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:12 AM

I think I might transfer this over to MP3 format, download it to my Sansa, and listen to it the next time I'm out observing.

https://www.youtube....h?v=ImuLz1Oo9c8

Maybe this one, too.

https://www.youtube....h?v=phhUy1VsnG0

:lol:

-stray-

#55 stray1

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:59 AM

I think I might transfer this over to MP3 format, download it to my Sansa, and listen to it the next time I'm out observing.

https://www.youtube....h?v=ImuLz1Oo9c8

Maybe this one, too.

https://www.youtube....h?v=phhUy1VsnG0

:lol:

-stray-


On second thought, no I won't. It appears that YouTube has gotten a bit "dystopian" as of late concerning MP3 conversions. Something about copyright infringement. Who holds the copyright on the sounds of Jupiter and Io? NASA? :question:

Oh, well...I can still listen to Astronomy Cast.

http://www.astronomycast.com/

:grin:

-stray-

#56 Asbytec

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:01 AM

Man, if you could hear the planets, well, that would be real observing. Maybe elephants can hear them?

I am wondering if sketching images can suffice as observing practice? Maybe. If nothing else, you are gaining familiarity and learning to get those details down quickly. Can't hurt, have at it. And you have a nice style, surely your real time sketching reflects it.

#57 Chopin

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

Yeah, Stray, that pencil work has a beautiful look to it. If you can start seeing that much detail in your 90mm, you've got it made! :grin:

#58 stray1

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

Norme: I really hope that my practice sketches using photos are not considered cheating or inappropriate for this forum.

My intent with these is to create a mental map; a neural pathway between my eyeball, by brain, and my fingers so that the next time I'm at the EP if something that I've drawn before "jumps" out at me in real time I can capture it.

Ultimately, does it really matter if my first view was through the EP or from a photo? As I mentioned in a previous post, at the EP I sketch only what I actually see so it's not like I'm going to add some detail just because I think it "should" be there. I try to err to the side of "I doubt it" or "Maybe" :grin:.

Jason: Thanks for your comments on the pencil sketch. My fingers really are making the effort to loosen up a bit.

As for the 90mm, I assure you that it is showing me a lot more than I'm currently seeing. I took that color/hue test that was posted on one of your threads. Discerning subtle differences between the yellow/brown end of the scale is on of my weaknesses.

Figures...

:grin:

-stray-

#59 Chopin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:23 AM

:lol: Mark, you couldn't have been cursed with a more challenging color weakness. Often times, individuals with less sensitive color perception are blessed with higher sensitivity to contrasts. Just draw what you see. The more you draw, the more you'll see.

As for the 90mm, I agree that you will definitely be able to see much more as you get better nights of seeing, and train your brain to pick up those minute details. AFAIC the 90mm refractor is darned near the perfect all around "living room" scope. Keep it setup near the couch with a couple of key eyepieces and grab it when you want. Very little cool down time, less transport weight, yet still enough aperture for most nights. I'd love to trade up from my AT 72-ED to a TMB 92-L. I can't imagine a better grab and go scope on the market. But I digress.

Keep up what you're doing with the practice sketches. It's an exercise that is helping you enjoy the hobby. And like Michael (Special Ed) pointed out in one of my recent threads, amateur literally means: for the love of it. ;)

#60 Asbytec

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:26 AM

Mark, I hope I did not imply such. I know you're practicing. I was just commenting off the cuff about how it might help and wondering myself. I couldn't tell ya, I hope it does.

#61 Chopin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:26 AM

Oh, and if you are weak in the perceiving the warm hues, you might actually benefit from an 82A filter, if you don't already use one.

#62 stray1

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:39 AM

Norme…no…no, man, I didn’t mean to imply that you were implying. I was simply musing about the validity of using photographs as practice models. I’m really wondering what other sketch artists think about this method.

Is it fair, or is it cheating? :question:

I believe that it is helping me map out Jupiter’s more vague features (well, vague to me anyway). It may be purely coincidental but after making my initial “practice” sketches (dated 1 Dec 2012) I can no longer look into my EP without detecting a festoon, or two (and this morning, three!) even at low magnification (25mm x36.4). I think I “might” be onto something here.

Jason, yup, I store both of my rigs out in the “observatory” to keep cool down time to a minimum. The only items I bring inside are my EPs and diagonals.

The sky finally cleared up and I had some really good observing conditions this morning; however, I have discovered that observing after work is not the most optimal time for me. The problem is that by the time I get home from work, Jupiter has already crossed vertex and is settling slowly into a LP zone to my west. I initially have excellent views, but they gradually worsen within 30-45 minutes.

Still, my first 15 minutes with the Big J this session were outstanding! :jump:

From N to S:

NPR and NnTB were apparent. They extended down nearly to the NTB and had a chalky gray speckled look to them.

NTB was ghostly, fading out toward either limb; pale russet in color.

NEB appeared thinner than I’ve presented it in previous sketches, but I’m beginning to think that perhaps I was “seeing” it as thicker than it actually is…sort of psychologically modifying it to suit my expectations of how it “should” appear. It was a pale russet color. Dangling from its southern edge were three bluish gray festoons; however, the one nearest the P limb rotated out view early in the session (I included it in the sketch “just because”). At higher magnification, I detected the festoons as being triangular in shape with very vague “tails” trailing toward to P limb. I say “detected” here because this is one of those lucid moment things…sometimes they appeared as triangular with tails but, for the most part, they looked like smudges of darker color that “might” be triangular in form and “might” have tails.

NEZ was wider than I recall; almost white but with a yellowish tint to it. No details to report.

The SEB was quite thin this morning; pale russet in color.. I believe that I detected a couple of darker spots along its southern edge, but I am unsure of this. I’ve included them in my sketch as indicated by the red question marks. I’m fairly certain that something is going on here I just do not know what it is. I am detecting something; resolving nothing.

GRS was not visible during this session.

Now, usually the southern hemisphere of Jupiter is a big void for me with the exception of the SPR which is usually visible as a vague, darker crescent. This morning things were different. The SsTB was apparent. It extended north from the SPR terminating approximately at the halfway point in reference to the southern edge of the SEB. Ordinarily, I do not see the SsTB but this morning it was there.

Additionally, I could make out a definite change of hue between the SsTB and the SPR. Both were a vague, russet color; however, the SPR was slightly darker.

And blah, blah, blah…on with the sketch…for the love of it.

:grin:

-stray-

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#63 stray1

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:49 AM

Oh, and if you are weak in the perceiving the warm hues, you might actually benefit from an 82A filter, if you don't already use one.


Hi Jason,

Y'know, out of curiosity, I went back and retook that "test" focusing on the first bar specifically. Perfect score. There is noting wrong with my ability to discern subtle changes in hue. I think I'm just lazy.

I still may check into that filter. thanks!

:grin:

-stray-

#64 Chopin

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:55 AM

Hey, look at that! Nice detail work. I see you maxed out your exit pupil by taking advantage of the excellent seeing. Interesting dark regions in the SEB. I bet someone can comment on what they might be. FWIW, I often blow out the scale on certain features because my mind wreaks havoc with my pencil. :lol:

#65 stray1

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:20 AM

FWIW, I often blow out the scale on certain features because my mind wreaks havoc with my pencil. :lol:


Jason,

I must exaggerate certain things on paper or else my scanner will not detect them. SPR/SsTB in the above sketch is a good example of this (as well as the festoons...they "probably" were not actually that dark or well defined".

Now, if I suddenly claim to start seeing white ovals everywhere, feel free to accuse me of having "fiery trousers" (unless I run them through the "doubt gauntlet"...look, see, doubt, pace, drink coffee, smoke, look again, see, doubt, pace, drink coffee, look again with a different EP/Barlow combination...see...doubt...pace...drink coffee, pace, drink coffee, look...see!).

Not exactly the scientific method, but close.

:grin:

-stray-

#66 Asbytec

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

Hey, is practicing a particular pool shot cheating? I think not. I do it all the time. Sketch on. Anything that gives you an advantage is helpful, not cheating IMO.

Now, Mark, you are getting more out of that refractor. That's so cool. I'd bet it has bit more to deliver, still, given the good moments in seeing and you being there.

I wonder about those features on the SEB, too. There are some down there, but they are very tiny. You may have caught some of the darker features /within/ the SEB itself, but had some difficulty placing them. That's not uncommon. Sometimes weaker features are fleeting and it's hard to pinpoint them. I have no doubt something was there giving you that dark visual impression. Question is, what was it or could it have been. Lemme poke around some recent images of that CM and see what stands out.

The southern hemisphere is the most difficult for me, too. But, you are getting a hold on it. Your sketches are getting better each time, because your observing is improving right before our very eyes. You already have the sketching talent, learning to see your subject is making all the difference. Well done.

#67 Asbytec

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:02 AM

Okay, poked around a bit and found an image at CMI 63 that is 3 days old. If you rotate the planet back a bit, that will be CMI 40-ish. Well, guess what's there? Two festoons and two dark spots "IN" the SEB, one pretty prominent. There is also a dark bottom, but that may be not so easily seen.

See for yourself (second from the bottom by Christopher Pellier.)
http://alpo-j.asahik...12/j121209z.htm

Sometimes we gotta be careful because things change over the course of a few days, sometimes the get bigger and other times they fade. But if I had to guess, those dark spots might be it. Or at least a hint of it. Not conclusive, but inspiring possibility none-the-less. The only way to know for sure is to keep at it.

#68 azure1961p

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

It's outright wrong to practice with photos.

When I am at the scope I have my hands covered in charcoal dust. I study I observe then close my eyes walk to where I kno my paper is and I FEEL the festoon FLOWING through me. I twist and turn like so many opposing jets of gas. Then I do it all over again. You must Feeeeel the features and let the electricity flow.

I've never ever looked at a drawing I've done. By the end of the observation I am collapsed at the foot of the ladder lost in reverence to the King.

Try it.

Pete

#69 Asbytec

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:51 PM

Pete, you're describing being in the zone, being one with Jupiter. It's a cool and very real experience experience. She opens up during those moments.

#70 stray1

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

It's outright wrong to practice with photos.

When I am at the scope I have my hands covered in charcoal dust. I study I observe then close my eyes walk to where I kno my paper is and I FEEL the festoon FLOWING through me. I twist and turn like so many opposing jets of gas. Then I do it all over again. You must Feeeeel the features and let the electricity flow.

I've never ever looked at a drawing I've done. By the end of the observation I am collapsed at the foot of the ladder lost in reverence to the King.

Try it.

Pete


You might be onto something, Pete. It might be wrong for me to use photos, but not because they do not allow for the moments that you describe at the EP. I could very well be screwing up my ability to perceive here.

I was reviewing yesterday’s sketch this afternoon before leaving for work. Although I thought it looked pretty good initially, something wasn’t sitting right with it after a night’s sleep. Then I realized…the tails of the festoons are pointing TOWARD the P limb. This is incorrect. In photos and in other observers sketches the tails point away from the P limb. But, during that “lucid” moment that I described in my OP, this is how I “saw” them; pointing toward the P limb.

Now, go back and look at my first practice sketch (p.2 of this thread dated 12/01/12). This was drawn from a photograph. Note the festoon and the direction that it is pointing. Obviously, the P limb in the photo is to the right. Next, scroll up to my computer generated sketch dated 11/24/12. Take note of the NEB detail that I circled and noted as “not sure (maybe yes)” in red. Although, I did not realize it at the time, this is a festoon and it is slanted away from the P limb (the left side of the sketch).

Interesting. Before using photos to practice on, I was seeing the festoons oriented correctly. I’m now seeing the festoons on a regular basis and, at least this one time, they have appeared “flipped” in my mind’s eye. It is like I’ve trained my mind to see them as I drew them in the practice sketch; for right or wrong. What I’m wondering is if now that I realize what has happened, will my mind kick into “auto-correct” mode during those lucid moments? Even so, will I be able to trust those lucid moments now that I’ve corrupted my mind? :question:

Incidentally, I detected several festoons this evening while observing the transit of Ganymede’s shadow across the southern hemisphere. They did not appear to be oriented in either direction. They were simply dark smears.

Maybe this is my mind’s way of telling me: “I’m not going to show you anything more until you get your act together, Buddy Roo.” :lol:

Oh yeah, Norm, I spotted some additional dark patches along the southern edge of the SEB this morning. Definitely (maybe) there, but I’m not going to attempt a sketch unless I observe them in following sessions. I've reached a point where I no longer trust myself.

:grin:

-stray-

#71 Asbytec

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:51 AM

Well, I have seen festoons that appeared to point the wrong way. I guess they are not, really, but sometimes the way they jet into the EZ can make them appear to. It's really just the interplay between hues that gives that effect. Often there really is no defined streak following the winds toward the following limb, just a tangle of darker albedo jetting south. So, it can appear to do almost anything.

Trust is a big component. Really, there are times I do not trust myself. So, images help confirm those things we think we saw. Soon, though, you will learn to trust our eyes a little more. Recently, I decided I saw something and wasn't gonna let an image tell me otherwise. It comes with experience and practice.

As for cheating, I cheat all the time. For example, I cheat by knowing there is a white oval south of the GRS. I am seeing it more frequently. So, even though I noted it, I still "practice" observing it to get a feel for how it comes and goes with seeing. The other ovals will behave the same way, so observing an easy one might help observe a more difficult one.

#72 stray1

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:36 AM

Weird session this morning viewing-wise.

Transparency was really good; no clouds, no haze. Seeing was also good, but for some odd reason everything seemed washed out. Even the Pleiades (which usually “blaze”) looked blah through my 7x35s.

Even Jupiter looked paler than usual, almost black and white in appearance, and its features were vague. I detected little-to-no color in the central belts…maybe a faded terra cotta at best.

I detected 2 (possibly 3) festoons and it appears that the mental flip-flop that I experienced on the 12th has auto-corrected itself. The larger, leading festoon had a discernible “lean” away from the P limb. The middle one was just a vague smear of dark, and the third “possible” was sort of on again/off again. I believe that it was there, but am unsure. I indicated it with a dash near the F limb.

There appeared to be a couple of darker spots along the southern edge of the SEB so I am going to go out on a limb and say that I am definitely picking something up in this area.

The southern hemisphere had a faint, gray tint to it that terminated just south of the SEB, but for some reason the darker crescent of the SPR was all but invisible. This is out of the ordinary as I am usually only able to detect the SPR while everything north of it (as far as the southern edge of the SEB) looks vacant.

Additionally, there appeared to be a slightly darker “scratch” along the northern edge of this region. For sketching purposes I had to exaggerate it slightly or else my scanner will not pick it up. Honestly, I had to exaggerate all of the features as they were so vague this morning.

As I stated in the beginning…weird.

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#73 Asbytec

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:19 AM

Mike, still wondering what those darker SEB features are. I'd bet they are actually embedded in the SEB. There are some trailing the GRS which, I believe, is just over the preceding limb. The first clue of that is the "scratch" in the south.

Surely weather is playing a role washing out Jupiter and the Pleiades.

I am really eager to observe tonight. That color phenom has my complete attention. Very curious if I will be able to define the SEB a little better. But, man, the GRS will be transiting. That means working feverishly on a sketch, or maybe just concentrating on the SEB.

Well, girlfriend has to dress me. Gotta run. Nice to see you sketching your observations, Mike.

#74 stray1

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:54 AM

Cloudy/overcast most of the weekend. Cleared up a bit this evening (16-17 Dec 2012) but there were still quite a few heavy areas to the ceiling. Intermittent views of Jupiter through “scudders” early on before a reasonably wide gap allowed for about 20 minutes of relatively unobstructed observation. Lessened transparency cut down on a great deal of the glare from the planet. Seeing was really fine; good focus.

Most all of previously observed features were apparent. “Scratch” reported on 14 December along the northern edge of STB was not present. Areas north of the NTB were smaller, fainter than usual. Festoons apparent at low magnification. The larger one definitely had a triangular shape to it at higher magnification. The smaller; more of a “hint”. Both appeared grayish blue in color.

Focused chiefly on the EZ/SEB region(s) on the lookout for previously observed darker “spots”. No such spots were apparent; however, lighter areas were detected within the SEB. These areas are represented by pale smudges in the sketch as their faintness did not allow for precise placement. Maybe detected “something” going on in the center of the EZ during a moment of lucid detection. Unsure of this. Will attempt verification if anyone posts AP on the ALPO site.

:grin:

-stray-

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#75 stray1

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:09 AM

Mike, still wondering what those darker SEB features are. I'd bet they are actually embedded in the SEB. There are some trailing the GRS which, I believe, is just over the preceding limb. The first clue of that is the "scratch" in the south.

Surely weather is playing a role washing out Jupiter and the Pleiades.

I am really eager to observe tonight. That color phenom has my complete attention. Very curious if I will be able to define the SEB a little better. But, man, the GRS will be transiting. That means working feverishly on a sketch, or maybe just concentrating on the SEB.

Well, girlfriend has to dress me. Gotta run. Nice to see you sketching your observations, Mike.


Mike? You trying to be a funny guy, Norme? :lol:

Yes, the weather probably did play a role in washing everything out. Transparency was excellent. Looking at Jupiter in the EP was like staring into a pen light at the doctor's office. Heck, I could have drawn a sketch just using that light to see by...

:grin:

-stray-

Ps--danke for informing me of your "dressing routine". Next time warn me before hand so I can put on some 70s porno music; played backwards, with Satanic messages.






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