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Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT..

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#76 rannoch

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

May I ask what the best eyepieces size is to have the best chance to see the HH? I have a 12" Meade F/10

I have a 2" H-Beta filter and soon to own a 1.25"

What 1.25" and 2" would be be best for my scope?

#77 David Knisely

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

May I ask what the best eyepieces size is to have the best chance to see the HH? I have a 12" Meade F/10

I have a 2" H-Beta filter and soon to own a 1.25"

What 1.25" and 2" would be be best for my scope?


You will need a fairly long focal length eyepiece to get into the proper exit pupil range to detect the Horsehead. Probably something in the 35mm to 55mm focal length range for an eyepiece would get you there. A good 40mm Plossl or 55mm Plossl might be good places to start. Clear skies to you.

#78 rannoch

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper

#79 ensign

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper


I saw a Pentax 40 XL on A-mart recently. I have one and like the views through my 9.25 Edge.

#80 Sarkikos

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

Maybe a Titan-II ED 40mm if you can find one used.

Mike

#81 KidOrion

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper


An easy way to figure out what you need would be to plug your scope/eyepiece stats into an Eyepiece Calculator that computes exit pupils (among other things). Useful to have!

#82 blb

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:30 AM

Hi David

Perhaps a Televue 40mm 1.25" Plossl and a 2" Televue 55" Plossl?

Or even a Meade 4000 Series 56mm Super Plossl Eyepiece 2"

A lot cheaper


An easy way to figure out what you need would be to plug your scope/eyepiece stats into an Eyepiece Calculator that computes exit pupils (among other things). Useful to have!


It would seam to me that it would be best to learn the formula. Then you could figure it in your head when you did not have access to a Eyepiece Calculator. It is really simple to calculate the exit pupil for any eyepiece.

Exit Pupil= eyepiece focal length/telescope focal ratio

Example: a 40mm eyepiece with a f/10 SCT = 4mm exit pupil



#83 kansas skies

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

Although I've never seen the actual horsehead form, I have been able to make out some structure in the surrounding nebulosity with a 4" refractor from my rural community (yellow zone) by slowly moving the scope back and forth with the manual declination control. I read somewhere that it's easier to see faint details in nebulous objects if the field is in motion and found that it actually does work - Bill.

#84 Sarkikos

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

Good idea. I've used that trick to detect faint galaxies and see some structure in them.

Mike

#85 RolandosCY

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.


I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

Hmmm. I meant the unfiltered view. Then again, I don't usually check both on the same night.


Hmmm... Finally last night I had a chancve to test my above statement. Under SQM 21.04 (steady!) skies I had The Veil and IC 434 at approximately similar altitude - neither very high. Case is settled: Under similar conditions, in my 18", the Veil (all main segments) were considerably brighter than IC434. My previous statement was gloriously toppled! I guess the fact that by late October I rarely check the Veil and I don't normally bother for the HH until mid December created somehow in my mind the illusion that the unfiltered view of the Veil was similar to that of IC434. No chance. Without filter the Veil was readily visible with direct vision and with structure visible, and in the 31mm Nagler with UHC it became a superbly detailed object. On the other hand, IC 434 was barely visible with averted vision in unfiltered views (provided Zeta Orionis was not in the filed). With the 31mm Nagler and UHC, IC434 was visible with direct vision (including an ill-defined horsehead!) provided Zeta Orionis was kept out of the field. The UHC-filtered view of IC434 was considerably fainter than the unfiltered view of either Veil segment. Adding a H-Beta filter made IC434 more obvious, but still not as bright as unfiltered Veil views.

In another important aspect, I did check the HH visibility with two different eyepieces that gave me a similar true field of view: The TV Ethos 13mm (158x) and the TV Panoptic 19mm (108x), both providing a 0.63-degree TFOV. Using the H-Beta filter, the Horsehead was clearly visible in both eyepieces, but the Panoptic gave a much better, more 3-D view and dare I say, it provided a more detailed image of the HH (the "snout" was more pointy and overall more visible). The Ethos 13 is giving me a 2.9mm exit pupil, while the Panoptic 19 is giving me a 4.2mm exit pupil. The image difference was confirmed by the two astrobuddies who were there with me. So, at least under the good conditions we have had last night, the eyepiece that gave the greatyer exit pupil gave the best image!

#86 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

I had a rather nice view of B33 last night through an H-beta filtered 22" f/3.6 SDM Dob and a 21mm Ethos.

Dave Mitsky

#87 LivingNDixie

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:05 AM

Although I've never seen the actual horsehead form, I have been able to make out some structure in the surrounding nebulosity with a 4" refractor from my rural community (yellow zone) by slowly moving the scope back and forth with the manual declination control. I read somewhere that it's easier to see faint details in nebulous objects if the field is in motion and found that it actually does work - Bill.


Yep. Even just tapping the scope sometimes can make a difference. I want to say I read somewhere that this works because the eye can see things better when there is motion involved of whatever target we are trying to see.

#88 northernontario

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:44 PM

I have been after the Horsehead for a few years now. No luck thus far.

I don't like to say I almost saw it....but that was the situation last week. Following all the advice that I have recieved on here over the years, I first found the Flame Nebula. Faint but definitely visible. I then went to Alnitak, and started to follow the faint nebula down to HP 26756, and that's where I loose it. I switched between my Oiii and omega NPB and even tried the light pollution filter, but to no avail. No matter. There are some very pretty clusters and stars in that area.

jake

#89 BillFerris

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

A true OIII filter renders IC 434 invisible in any aperture. I'm not familiar with the passband characteristics of the Omega NPB. An H-beta is your best filter option to enhance IC 434 and, by extension, make B33 (the Horsehead nebula) more obvious to the eye. A UHC offers modest enhancement. An OIII will make it virtually impossible to observe this object.

Good luck with your pursuit of the Horsehead.

Bill in Flag

I have been after the Horsehead for a few years now. No luck thus far.

I don't like to say I almost saw it....but that was the situation last week. Following all the advice that I have recieved on here over the years, I first found the Flame Nebula. Faint but definitely visible. I then went to Alnitak, and started to follow the faint nebula down to HP 26756, and that's where I loose it. I switched between my Oiii and omega NPB and even tried the light pollution filter, but to no avail. No matter. There are some very pretty clusters and stars in that area.

jake



#90 David Knisely

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:55 PM

A true OIII filter renders IC 434 invisible in any aperture. I'm not familiar with the passband characteristics of the Omega NPB. An H-beta is your best filter option to enhance IC 434 and, by extension, make B33 (the Horsehead nebula) more obvious to the eye. A UHC offers modest enhancement. An OIII will make it virtually impossible to observe this object.

Good luck with your pursuit of the Horsehead.

Bill in Flag

I have been after the Horsehead for a few years now. No luck thus far.

I don't like to say I almost saw it....but that was the situation last week. Following all the advice that I have recieved on here over the years, I first found the Flame Nebula. Faint but definitely visible. I then went to Alnitak, and started to follow the faint nebula down to HP 26756, and that's where I loose it. I switched between my Oiii and omega NPB and even tried the light pollution filter, but to no avail. No matter. There are some very pretty clusters and stars in that area.

jake


The DGM Optics NPB filter is a narrow-band nebula filter with characteristics similar to the Lumicon UHC. The NPB has a very slightly narrower primary passband than the UHC, passing both the H-Beta and OIII lines at high transmission, along with a deep-red secondary passband. I have seen the Horsehead numerous times with the NPB filter, although it remains quite faint and somewhat marginal. The view in the H-Beta filter is quite a bit better in terms of contrast however. Clear skies to you.

#91 blb

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

The OIII filter will NOT work at all, a UHC filter will help some, I will leave the NPB filter to David, He knows and I have never used one. But let's get real here. NO ONE sees B33, it is dust and/or gas between us and IC434 that blocks our seeing IC434. So what you see is the absence of the nebula IC434 that is shaped like a horse head seen in silhouette. What you are trying to do is see the very faint nebula around the absence of the nebula because you can't see B33. If you are having trouble seeing IC434 you will never see the silhouette.

#92 BillFerris

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say no one sees B33. In my 18 inch, B33 presents as an inky blackness in the form of a horse's head seen in profile. It's an obviously deeper black than the charcoal hue of the sky to the east. This is generally true of dark nebulae. They display a genuine inky blackness in contrast to the naturally lighter hue of the nigth sky.

Bill in Flag

The OIII filter will NOT work at all, a UHC filter will help some, I will leave the NPB filter to David, He knows and I have never used one. But let's get real here. NO ONE sees B33, it is dust and/or gas between us and IC434 that blocks our seeing IC434. So what you see is the absence of the nebula IC434 that is shaped like a horse head seen in silhouette. What you are trying to do is see the very faint nebula around the absence of the nebula because you can't see B33. If you are having trouble seeing IC434 you will never see the silhouette.



#93 KerryInSpace

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 12:58 AM

Finding it was one of the most difficult albeit pleasurable objects I've ever encountered.  On March 10, 1989 at the dark site near Columbus,Texas  at 8:00 PM I logged the observation of it using a13" Coulter Dobsonian(long gone now), a Lumicon UHC filter and a Teleview 24MM wide field eyepiece(no longer made) along with a barlow producing 112 power. I used the higher power because contrast was of the essence and had been recommended to find it.

 

Here are my written out notes from that night:

"Incredibly difficult to see at first. I spent almost an hour with a black velveteen cloth over my head before I could see it. Could see only with averted vision. More prominent when I rolled my eye to the left side. Very low contrast. Just slightly more opaque than the sky background. Caught a few excellent glimpses of horse head shape. It was quite eerie during those moments. Once I located it I could relocate it without the cloth over my head and this was with a three day moon 20 degrees in the sky! I've never looked at a fainter object. The drawing was done totally from memory except for the field stars as I couldn't see the nebula with direct vision. I studied it for about 20 to 30 minutes."

 

When I got back into this wonderful hobby last September I purchased an 8" f/6 reflector. I have spent hours trying to see the Horsehead but with no luck SO FAR.  I am going to break down and order an H Beta filter and do the deal if at all possible. I do believe it is possible and that is more than half the battle.  :)


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#94 Love Cowboy

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 01:14 PM

Finding it was one of the most difficult albeit pleasurable objects I've ever encountered.  On March 10, 1989 at the dark site near Columbus,Texas  at 8:00 PM I logged the observation of it using a13" Coulter Dobsonian(long gone now), a Lumicon UHC filter and a Teleview 24MM wide field eyepiece(no longer made) along with a barlow producing 112 power. I used the higher power because contrast was of the essence and had been recommended to find it.

 

Here are my written out notes from that night:

"Incredibly difficult to see at first. I spent almost an hour with a black velveteen cloth over my head before I could see it. Could see only with averted vision. More prominent when I rolled my eye to the left side. Very low contrast. Just slightly more opaque than the sky background. Caught a few excellent glimpses of horse head shape. It was quite eerie during those moments. Once I located it I could relocate it without the cloth over my head and this was with a three day moon 20 degrees in the sky! I've never looked at a fainter object. The drawing was done totally from memory except for the field stars as I couldn't see the nebula with direct vision. I studied it for about 20 to 30 minutes."

 

When I got back into this wonderful hobby last September I purchased an 8" f/6 reflector. I have spent hours trying to see the Horsehead but with no luck SO FAR.  I am going to break down and order an H Beta filter and do the deal if at all possible. I do believe it is possible and that is more than half the battle.  :)

 

Not sure if you've figured it out yet, but that site is not quite as dark as it was in the '80s.  My dad saw the horsehead unfiltered in a 10-inch back then at the site.  I've seen it there numerous times in the last two years, but always with my H-beta and so far not with anything smaller than a 12-inch.  I'm not saying it's impossible with your 8-inch, but prepare for a major challenge, and I would say you definitely need the filter. 


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#95 KerryInSpace

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 01:56 PM

 

Finding it was one of the most difficult albeit pleasurable objects I've ever encountered.  On March 10, 1989 at the dark site near Columbus,Texas  at 8:00 PM I logged the observation of it using a13" Coulter Dobsonian(long gone now), a Lumicon UHC filter and a Teleview 24MM wide field eyepiece(no longer made) along with a barlow producing 112 power. I used the higher power because contrast was of the essence and had been recommended to find it.

 

Here are my written out notes from that night:

"Incredibly difficult to see at first. I spent almost an hour with a black velveteen cloth over my head before I could see it. Could see only with averted vision. More prominent when I rolled my eye to the left side. Very low contrast. Just slightly more opaque than the sky background. Caught a few excellent glimpses of horse head shape. It was quite eerie during those moments. Once I located it I could relocate it without the cloth over my head and this was with a three day moon 20 degrees in the sky! I've never looked at a fainter object. The drawing was done totally from memory except for the field stars as I couldn't see the nebula with direct vision. I studied it for about 20 to 30 minutes."

 

When I got back into this wonderful hobby last September I purchased an 8" f/6 reflector. I have spent hours trying to see the Horsehead but with no luck SO FAR.  I am going to break down and order an H Beta filter and do the deal if at all possible. I do believe it is possible and that is more than half the battle.  :)

 

Not sure if you've figured it out yet, but that site is not quite as dark as it was in the '80s.  My dad saw the horsehead unfiltered in a 10-inch back then at the site.  I've seen it there numerous times in the last two years, but always with my H-beta and so far not with anything smaller than a 12-inch.  I'm not saying it's impossible with your 8-inch, but prepare for a major challenge, and I would say you definitely need the filter. 

 

Yes. Until last year I had not observed at the site since 1998.  A long time. There is a bit less transparency in general but there has been some excellent nights of transparency since I've gone back as well. I don't think the skies are significantly less dark there but every little bit counts when it comes to the Horse. To be sure.   I know I am up against a major challenge but am going to use everything I know to do. I finally broke down and have a Lumicon H-Beta filter ordered.  I was always proud to be able say I saw the Horsehead with merely a UHC but that was with a 13" and as you mentioned "darker" skies.   ;)

 

One thing that does give me pause for concern is the seeing now. With all the improvements in terms of private observatories, observing pads, motor homes it is not as much like being out in the country as it once was as there is more stuff to collect heat in the day and then release the same at night. Progress is great but many times it comes with a price.  But I digress. :)

 

If and when I see the Horsehead in the 8" I will most definitely report back here. Ahhh, I will report back no matter what. I didn't mention that several times I thought I spotted it with averted vision when jiggling the tube(on two different night) and other strategies but I was never able to immediately verify with certainty as in the past. Imagination can do interesting things.  And I am older but I am going to keep trying. This is a fun hobby. 


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#96 stevecoe

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 03:10 PM

Hello Carol, et al;

 

All it takes is plenty of aperture.  Here is my drawing with Tom and Jeannie Clark's 36 inch f/5 at 300X with a UHC filter.  Anyone building such a scope?

 

My two cents:  this is one of those objects that is a great test of the night.  It takes excellent transparency to see it in 8 inches of aperture.  This drawing was made on a night I rated 8 out of 10 for transparency.  On that night a friend was able to pick it out in a 10 inch.  None of us owned an H Beta filter, so I can't speak to that.

 

Clear skies to us all;

Steve Coe

 

Attached File  ORI_B33_36in_300X_UHC_WB (Medium).jpg   92.83KB   6 downloads


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#97 stevecoe

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 07:40 PM

Folks,

 

I think that there is lots of interest in this object.  Seeing as how there are 5900 views of this thread, obviously lots of folks are looking for, or looking at, the Horsehead.  I am certain that my hero, E E. Barnard, would be very happy to see that this modest dark nebula gathers so many deep sky observers to observe it.  Not to mention that it is one of the few objects whose nickname actually looks like what you can see.

 

Best of luck;

Steve Coe

 

Here is my best shot of the Horsehead.  It is a wide angle shot with a 135mm lens.  4 minutes on Fuji 800 film.  Obviously, from years ago.  But I thought it might be helpful to those trying to find it with a wide angle view.

 

Attached File  Sword_ORI_135mm_film (Large).jpg   137.4KB   7 downloads


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#98 derekc

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 07:38 AM

I could make out the notch in IC434 last night for the first time. I could see the trail of IC434 and with adverted vision a smudge of dark just up from HD37805. This was in a 12" f/5 with H-beta filter and Tele-Vue 25mm plossl. I must admit that this filter and eyepiece were purchased for this purpose. This gave me a about a 5mm exit pupil with about 50' field of view. The transparency was about average. I tried other eyepiece and filter combinations that were okay but I probably would not have seen any of it had I not started with the TV25 and HB. I am hoping for a night with better transparency before horse head season is over.



#99 payner

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 02:39 PM

Just gorgeous photo of the Horsehead in context of M42.  Thanks for sharing this with us Steve.

 

Best,
Randy



#100 JimMo

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 04:51 PM

I think I replied recently to this or another HH thread or maybe I tried to post and CN was being wonky that day and I gave up.

 

Last month I was in Big Bend NP under the darkest most transparent skies I've ever experienced, even darker the the OTSP.  I had first seen the HH at the 2010 and again at the 2014 WSP.  That's in my 14.5" and not the darkest skies and with a H Beta filter.  I could just make out the dust "notch" of the head both times.  At Big Bend the HH was apparent without the filter and more pronounced with it.  Best view I've ever had of both B33 and IC434.  Etched in my mind and look forward to going to the TSP someday.  It was clear every night except the first while I was there.


Edited by JimMo, 28 February 2016 - 04:52 PM.

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