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SEB is Blue

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#1 Asbytec

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

Happened to catch the GRS this evening trying to sneak over the meridian. It was one of those good nights when the GRS gave up her orange hue. BA obliged as well.

And Pete is correct, again. Personally, I think pursuing Jupiter is working. Whereas those white ovals have always been difficult if not impossible, I did hold the one south of the GRS steady for long periods. Maybe one preceding it fleetingly. The point being, they are becoming easier. That's cool.

Now, understand my girlfriend has less than 30 minutes eyepiece time, but her observation was stunning.

I asked her, "Baby, come see the Great Red Spot."

She fumbled to the eyepiece, nearly tripping and ripping my UO HD from it's socket. "Okay, relax. It's on the left. See it? Little circle?"

"Ya," she replied. After a moment, she packed it in as usual. Thank God the tripod was still upright. Whew!

Curious about her observation I asked, "Hey, what color was it?"

She said it was, "Red!"

Well, okay, I had forgotten I had asked her to observe the Great "RED" Spot. :lol: But, she saw red. Fine, it's really orange or maybe salmon, but I'll take red as an answer. After all, she only has 30 minutes eyepiece time, there's no way she would differentiate those difficult hues.

Coffee grew cold, so I went inside to heat it up and to ask her again about her observation. "So, you saw red?"

"Yes," she replied sounding a little annoyed I was interrupting her program. "Why?"

Well, "because a lot of people have trouble with it," I replied trying to avoid any indication I was talking about myself. She shot back, in her young arrogant tone, "That's because they bulog." Bulog means "blind" in Tagolog.

Okay, round one goes to her, I asked if she had seen any other colors. She immediately mentioned seeing, "Blue!" Like a double barreled potato cannon firing in rapid succession, my bowels immediately ejected two rounds of scat into my undergarments, "Where did you see blue?" Surely, with only 30 minutes observing time, she didn't see blue in the two festoons visible. Or maybe she did.

Okay, now it's sign language time because she had no idea how to describe Jupiter. Her two fingers motioned up and down, kind of along Jupiter's equator as she would have seen it. Then she placed the GRS in the middle.

Ah, okay, the SEB was blue! I chuckled to myself thinking how cute she was having only 30 minutes total astronomical experience. I went out back with a warmed cup of coffee thinking, "She's so cute."

Turns out, though, round two was her's, as well. I just didn't know it right then. What hadn't dawned on me was I spent most of the evening observing the differences in color between the NEB and the SEB.

The NEB has a strong ruddy, almost washed out hue to it. The SEB is, well, a little more difficult to explain. The SEB is definitely better defined along it's edges. And it kind of has a more pale, hue to it. It has some brown, but it's not exactly brown. Not in the same way the NEB is ruddy.

It dawned on me, "you know," I thought to myself, "I could see how someone might see that as blue." I mean, it's not really blue, not in the way a festoon is. But it does have some, well, maybe gray in it. Can't really say where, but it does give off a gray "feeling" I guess.

Now, studying it a little more, the darker, prominent features like the one riding the GRS wake's back, has a little brown hue, best I can tell, very much like the brown in the NEB that used to be there. The wake itself eats up much of the rest of the SEB, but where is the rest of the brown? There is some other color mixed in, I think maybe it's blue, er I mean gray.

Anyone else see it that way? I had noticed it before, but just thought it was the strong ruddy NEB contrasting with the SEB. But, it's time to update my sketching pallet, I think. The SEB has to become a little more gray.

Did the color change recently, or is there just always sometime new to learn about observing Jupiter?

#2 azure1961p

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

That's gotta be your best post yet Norme lol.

It IS funny what other non astronomers make of it. I kind of envy the newness of the experience as they don't have the preconceived ideas and expectations as we do.

The SEB on the night I observed the wake of the GRS clearly was bitonal. The northern edge of the SEB was red brown but where it transitioned into the wake it turned a muddy grey sans the red.

Now if you want to test her perception invite her out to see the great purple spot and see what happens!

Pete

#3 Asbytec

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

She's already seen some purple spots. I'm old enough to have them, already. :)

Yes, exactly, the SEB is awash with hue, especially from the wake. It does appear to sort of rain down lighter hues. But, even preceding the GRS, the belt is just different than the more rusty color of the NEB. I'm wondering if the NEB is changing color right before our eyes, making the SEB look, well, more blue-gray with brown embedded in places.

#4 Chopin

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

Awesome post, Norme. I can practically hear her rolling her eyes at your shenanigans. The subject does have merit, though.

Shades of Brown

To my eyes "liver", "wenge" and even "taupe" take on decidedly bluish hues when compared to, say, "coffee", "russet" and "sepia". It's all relative. She has good eyes to pick up those differences. I know I'll be looking for it now.

#5 Ed D

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

Norme, I'm not sure I would do what Pete suggests about the great purple spot - you may end up seeing all kinds of spots. :smash:

I was looking in the planetary AP forum and there are a few recent pics that show the colors you and Pete mention. As new as I am to planetary I'm also observing the different hues in the bands as well as the differences between the NEB and SEB. I'm sure we notice the subtle changes as they are taking place because we are observing the same object night after night, looking for detail. A casual observer who may look at Jupiter less than a half dozen times during an apparition probably won't even realize the changes that have taken place.

Ed D

#6 Asbytec

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:45 PM

Ed, yea, I think they are changing or our perception is changing. Hard to tell the difference. Really, I think Jupiter is and I have been slow to react. :)

Jason, thanks for the site, lemme peruse it. Oh, if she ever rolls her eyes at me...uh ho ho ho! :lol:

Edit: wenge looks interesting. Yea, I do see some level of blue in the one's you mentioned. Makes sense, too, blue makes up those colors to some extent. Wow, interesting.

#7 stray1

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:17 AM

Your GF might be onto something, Norm. Although both belts usually appear to me as russet/orange/or flesh tone, occasionally I "think" that I might be detecting a faint grayish blue in the center of the SEB. I could be wrong. With the way that my mind has been playing tricks on me here lately, I am no longer certain of a thing or two.

She spent a half hour at the scope with you? You have a good woman there! I doubt that I could get my wife to the EP even if there was a giant asteroid headed toward us with a big smiley face painted on it :)

:grin:

-stray-

#8 CPellier

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:39 AM

Many years ago a friend from my astro club saw the SEB bluish as well (in a 6" newtonian). I took a look at the eyepiece and yes, at first glance I saw blue as well. But after a few seconds, I realize that I was watching at the GRS "wake" inside the belt ; there were whitish clouds in the middle and at low resolution they mixed with the nuance of brown of the belt to make this feeling of blue. However there was no blue to see.
Colour mixing at (relative) low resolution can also do this...

#9 Asbytec

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

Yea, she comes out once in a while. About 30 times over the last 3 years...for a few minutes. She's seen Saturn and Mars, and she brings her friends, at times.

But that's the last time I ask her... making me look bad by making it look easy. :) (kidding of course)

Chris, sure, the interplay of the wake and the belt could do that. I want to look at it again. It does lack the more ruddy hue of the NEB, that could well be the reason.

#10 frank5817

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

Norme,

A nice read. :)

Frank :)

#11 Asbytec

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:17 PM

The beer drinking social events kick off around noon in this retirement community. The routine is suck suds until about 6PM, sleep it off, then wake up the next morning and repeat. Today was different in that I participated and almost sacrificed a Jupiter observation.

Believe me, I'd much rather observe Jupiter than sweat off a hangover, or sleep it off than suffer it. I woke up way too early, about 10PM, and the Mak had been cooling since 6PM. A throbbing headache dominated much of that time. It still aches a little.

While reading Frank's post, she was scrubbing my back with cotton soaked in alcohol. The same one she just finished cleaning her face with. Then she'd show me how dirty I was. All I noticed was how "wenge" the cotton appeared to be. After a quick cold shower I decided to struggle out back for a quick session.

Girlfriend made some coffee and came out to observe with me. Jupiter was about CMI 040 just past the zenith. It displayed a nice lumpy rift in the NEB. Cherry, you might as well get to know her, identified the NEB rift as blue-white. She's so cute, and probably not wrong. :)

There was a nice, soft blue arching festoon on the meridian. Quite nice, really. The leading GRS wake could be seen clear across the northern SEB sporting some brighter, closely spaced "spots." The darker core of the SEB was back to it's normal brown . The SEBs was a little different. Maybe not so brown, but maybe a little wenge like that dirty cotton.

The GRS was still a couple hours from the following limb, a dull remnant headache prevented any wait for it. The striking difference in hue between the NEB and SEB was not so pronounced. It might have been the blue-white rift in the north that kept its hue toned down. Or it might have been the booze.

Here's a shot, should be withing a few degrees if the CM visible tonight. It was made with a 6" Mak! wow! Looks almost the same, except much cleaner and more saturated than visual.

Good night.

#12 Chopin

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

I like to sip a beer at the telescope. A good slightly chilled robust porter makes a fine companion to a quiet night and a clear sky. Headaches don't help sketching, though. Neither does a 12% abv Belgian quadruple, but that's another story for another day.

BTW, thanks so much for sharing with us the color of your filthy back. :lol: You're really liking that "wenge" aren't you. I planted a monster seed in that trap of yours. Sleep off the headache and give us a full color report when the transparency gives you a good look.

#13 Ed D

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:04 PM

Norme, sounds like you live in a community of wild party animals.

Anyway, check out this AP of jupiter, and this one if you haven't done so already. The GRS wake in the first one is super impressive, bigger than what I saw a few nights earlier. The pics may help you with what you observed.

Ed D

#14 Asbytec

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

Matted hair and pillow face should complete the visual. "My dog makes me feel dirty. He sniffs the bed for 10 minutes before he lays down in it." :lol: (Rodney, RIP)

Ed, yes was looking at those. Glenn's image shows the SEB color very well. Compared with the other, there is a bit of a difference. I tend to trust Glenn's (DesertRat) ability to process an image. But, I think I was seeing brown along the back of the wake. That's interesting, need another look.

Not sure what to make of image color, though. Blues and reds can be adjusted during processing. My eye doesn't have that luxury. Maybe his color is spot on, but sometimes I don't feel comfortable comparing color in images and visual.

OH! But you know what is image shows? Some darker features jutting up the the SEBn into the EZ. I saw one of those! Man, just got the urge to cool the scope for a look-see tonight. Yea, wanna really get a good look at Jupiter tonight.

Here's one from Chris Go that shows similar colors on both belts. He images from south of us, and this was taken last night.

http://astro.christo...er20121213a.jpg

#15 stray1

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

I'm starting to wonder about you Norme...Toga! Toga! Toga!

:john:

-stray-

Ps--PBR me ASAP.

#16 Asbytec

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

Well, guys, just finished a 3 hour study of Jupiter's colors before and after the GRS. Will post a color diagram in a new thread in case the dirty cotton ball grossed every one out.

There were some surprises, really. I did note my own eyes playing tricks. But, Girlfriend was right, there is a hint of blue in the SEB, believe it or not. Visually, anyway. More on that dissertation later. :)

OH! But, I was beginning to wonder about Stray, but there is indeed a funky, sweet looking Festoon just preceding the GRS. You gotta check it out. It has some kind of weird C shaped wispy thing...that might be pointing in the wrong direction.

That gray/blue...kind of brown color following the GRS will require some explanation in another thread. Suffice it to say at this point, it's not the same brown as that preceding the GRS.

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#17 azure1961p

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

Checkout the link I sent you.

Pete






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