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Baader Bino what EP's ES 68's or 82's?

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#1 dr.who

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

So I decided on the Baader Mark V 23 (Two inch nose piece) and was thinking to use a pair of ES 14mm 82* EP's in it but now would like to know if I am wasting a good EP in the bino because it will vignette on me. Would I be better off with a 68* instead or will the 82's be fine? For both planet and DSO viewing in a C11 and a Es 127mm APO by the way. For the ES I would be using a 1.2 OCS.

Thank you for your help!

Thanks!

#2 RAKing

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Why do you think the 14mm will vignette? I used the 16T5 Naglers in my Mark V binos with no problems at all. I also used 13 and 11mm Naglers.

Currently I am using Panoptics and Brandons, but it's because the Naglers dewed up quicker - not because of any optical issues.

If you are comfortable with the 14, why not give it a go?

My .02,

Ron

#3 dr.who

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

Ron-

Good point. The problem I face is that I don't know what will happen and would rather not spend $100 I don't need to in order to find out. ;)

Plus since the 82's are on back order it's an excuse to get the 68's and use my bino tomorrow night! :)

#4 RAKing

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

Plus since the 82's are on back order it's an excuse to get the 68's and use my bino tomorrow night! :)


I cannot argue with that logic! :roflmao:

As I mentioned, I use my 68* Panoptics and they are still the best for me. I have heard good reviews on the ES 68*, but I haven't tried them myself.

Cheers,

Ron

#5 johnnyha

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

You should not have vignetting with any 1.25" eyepieces in the Mark Vs, the Pan 24s work and I believe they have the largest field stop of any 1.25".

I use 13T6 Nagler which are very close to the 14 ES 82 and they work very well. I've owned the ES 16mm 68 degree for binoviewing and they are very nice eyepieces, but the eye relief is a bit tight so that is a consideration.

#6 dr.who

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

Thank you gentlemen! That makes the decision for me. I will stick to the 82* lineup. Now I need to test tomorrow to see if I need the OCS or not. If not then I will get an 11mm which is in stock at my local shoppe and if I do then I will just sit on my hands and curse quietly until the 14's come back in stock. :lol: And I will be picking up a set of the 68's in either the 24's or 20's depending on the OCS.

#7 Doc Willie

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:51 AM

Good reason go for the 82s: Bigger on the inside than on the outside.

The Doctor

#8 dr.who

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:32 PM

Well the test was very disappointing. First issue was that the 1.2 ocs didn't allow enough in travel on the focuser. My shoppe was kind enough to loan me a 1.3 from a Denkmeir that went in the front of the diagonal and allowed for focus. Then I found a flaw in the prism that causes an optical aberration so I had to return them. I subsequently found out that I need at least a 2x ocs to make it work and can expect between 1/2 to 2/3 loss of magnitude (per review on the user reviews page here on the es 127) on DSO's coupled with having to pick up a lot of expensive ep's because the es's will be too high a mag thus making bino's a non starter which is unfortunate.

#9 johnnyha

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

Sorry for the disappointment! Give it some time dr who, I'll bet you'll be happy you did. For one thing, I don't think you need a 2X OCS to reach focus, surely the 1.7X gpc will work. You can also connect a T2 diagonal directly to the MkV as it was intended and you will reach focus with the 1.25X gpc.

And while you may lose 1/2 mag on DSO's, with binos I find a leap in resolution on planetary/Moon views.

As far as expensive lower power EPs, you can get a pair of 24mm ES 68s for not too much, considering your overall investment! Give it a bit more time... ;)

#10 dr.who

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

Cheers Johnny. Disappointed but not out! :)

I had to return them due to optical flaw in the prism so it is just one of those things. I am waiting on an email from Bob from Baader regarding how I need to configure things.

If I need to get the T2 diagonal then I am at the price of the Siebert Blackhawk's and thus need to take a very hard look at those too. And if I am spending that much it becomes a question of why not spend $200-$300 more and get the Televue's...

But with the Televue's then I am for sure at 2x and am stuck with those 24's being 12's and thus needing 40's too which put's me square in the Televue line at 2-3 times the price of the ES's since 90% of my viewing is DSO and not planetary.

To be fair and honest though I usually like to end the evening with a look at the moon if it is up and/or Jupiter or Saturn depending on the time of year. Kind of a nice way to close out the evening actually. I was also planning to use these for outreach since I keep seeing people have trouble with the whole "close one eye" thing! :lol: I laugh but I really shouldn't...

#11 Eddgie

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

I am a bit confused... What diagonal do you have?

I am not sure if you know this, but the 1.25X GPC will give about 1.5x if you use it between the nose and the front of the diagonal.

I also don't know what diagonal you want to use. There is the T2 Maxbright Prism diagonal (non Zeiss prism) and the T2 Baader with the Zeiss prism, but at twice the price.

And of course you stand your very best chance of hitting focus with the minimum GPC using the Maxbright (non Zeiss) Prism Diagonal. I use this diagonal with my Mark Vs and they work great.

#12 RAKing

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

I'm with Ed on this. What diagonal do you have? I use the Baader Zeiss T-2 prism diagonal with my Mark V binos and I can reach focus with either the 1.25 or 1.7 GPC in my 5 inch refractors.

Personally, I prefer the 1.7 GPC and my eyepieces work well with this. As I mentioned earlier, I like the 24mm Panoptics for general DSO observing and they give me a very pleasing 69x with about 1 degree FOV. This is fine for 90 percent of the DSO out there. If I ever need more FOV, I'll change to the 1.25 GPC.

Going tighter for planets, etc. is easier. I like Brandons and orthos for this, but you can also use Plossls. No need to break the piggy bank - unless you want to travel first class through space. :cool:

Anyway, I would urge you to try again. My Mark V will NOT reach focus with a standard 2 inch diagonal in these refractors, but the smaller Baader T-2 prism works perfectly.

Hang in there,

Ron

#13 dr.who

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

I am a bit confused... What diagonal do you have?


Hey Eddgie! Thank you for chiming in. I really value your experience and insight. I am using the 2" diagonal supplied by Explore Scientific. It is the same one I use on my C11 as well.

I am not sure if you know this, but the 1.25X GPC will give about 1.5x if you use it between the nose and the front of the diagonal.


Per the directions from Baader there was only one way to screw it into the diagonal and I couldn't put it at the front end. Of course it is also quite possible I misread the directions and missed the way to put it in the other way... :foreheadslap:

I also don't know what diagonal you want to use. There is the T2 Maxbright Prism diagonal (non Zeiss prism) and the T2 Baader with the Zeiss prism, but at twice the price.


Ideally I want to use my current diagonal but per someone on another forum who has used the Baader's with the ES 127 you have to use the T2 (with or without the Zeiss prism) and the 1.7x glasspath corrector to get focus with the ES 127. This sounded odd to me but there is very limited data on the subject.

I have an email into Bob at Baader USA regarding confirming this but he is on Christmas holiday until the 26th and it will be a bit of time before he can get back to me since I am sure he will be swamped.

And of course you stand your very best chance of hitting focus with the minimum GPC using the Maxbright (non Zeiss) Prism Diagonal. I use this diagonal with my Mark Vs and they work great.


Pardon my ignorance but why is this the case? What is the differential between the non Zeiss and Zeiss?

Thank you again for the reply and happy holidays!

#14 pftarch

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:39 PM

I think once you get the whole corrector situation resolved and a pair of low power eyepieces that you like situated in your C11, you may be surprised how much you enjoy deep sky as well as the planets. Many of us find that the relaxed use of two eyes more than makes up for the loss in magnitude.

Enjoy!

#15 dr.who

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

I'm with Ed on this. What diagonal do you have? I use the Baader Zeiss T-2 prism diagonal with my Mark V binos and I can reach focus with either the 1.25 or 1.7 GPC in my 5 inch refractors.


Hey Ron. Thank you again for the help and encouragement! Per what I told Eddgie I am using the stock ES diagonal. And from this and what you mention below I have found the problem.

Personally, I prefer the 1.7 GPC and my eyepieces work well with this. As I mentioned earlier, I like the 24mm Panoptics for general DSO observing and they give me a very pleasing 69x with about 1 degree FOV. This is fine for 90 percent of the DSO out there. If I ever need more FOV, I'll change to the 1.25 GPC.


This is actually more good news. I thought I would loose too much with them in terms of viewing.


Anyway, I would urge you to try again. My Mark V will NOT reach focus with a standard 2 inch diagonal in these refractors, but the smaller Baader T-2 prism works perfectly.

Hang in there,

Ron


Cheers on the hang in. I think we (you all with me just being an idiot and following along ;) :bow: ) have found the problem. It lies in the diagonal.

At this point though for the Baader to work correctly with the diagonal and all the attachments I am looking at about $750, whereas the Siebert Blackhawk is $828, and the Televue is $840. Add to that the cost of new EP's at about $100 each for two sets and I am in the $1,150 to $1,250 range of expenditure. So I need to figure out a) which one is the best option in terms of BV's and B) if the experience/pleasure of view justifies the expense or would that money be better spent on another piece of equipment...

#16 dr.who

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

I think once you get the whole corrector situation resolved and a pair of low power eyepieces that you like situated in your C11, you may be surprised how much you enjoy deep sky as well as the planets. Many of us find that the relaxed use of two eyes more than makes up for the loss in magnitude.

Enjoy!


Cheers. The problem I face though isn't the SCT. I am pretty sure based on information here that focusing on it will not be a problem at all. It will be the refractor which will and is giving me fits! :)

#17 Eddgie

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

As you are very quickly learning, the light path lenght of binoviers is perhaps one of the most critical elements that needs to be considered.

As you said, you will be OK with the Mark V in the SCT, though even here, the Maxbright Diagonal will help keep the field as wide as possible.

With the refractors though, it makes a huge difference.

I have the "Maxbright Prism". The "Baader Prism" uses a Zeiss sourced prism, but the Maxbright uses a prism made by someone else to Baader specs. I find it to be an excellent prism being equal to the best dielectric mirrors I own.

The Maxbright Prism has the very shortest light path of any prism on the market. I believe it is 38mm.

The Baader Prism (Zeiss glass) is 41mm. But again, if the goal is to reach focus with as little GPC magnification as possible, keeping the light path as short as possible is very important.

The Maxbright Prism (non Zeiss) is only $130. You don't need anything else if your current system came with either a 2" or 1.25" nose.

You simply screw the nose on to the front of the diagonal, and then you screw the quick connector on to the top of the diagonal, put the dovetail in, and away you go.

This still may not reach focus, but it will give you the best chance possible and at a fairly small investment.

And my guess is that the Baader prism will hold value fairly well if you ever decide to upgrade.

There is also this. The Baader has the ability to mount to an SCT using a 15mm SCT connector screwed right into the front of the diagonal. This will shorten the light path by as much as 60mm over what you are using now in the SCT.

This doesn't sound like much but your current configuration is likely about 230mm in back focus, and going to the SCT adapter/Standard T2/Mark V will bring you in at about 175mm.

The C11 will be working at a focal lenght of about 3200mm with your currant configuration (maybe more). With the above configuration, you will be down to about 3100mm. You get a wider field at lower powers than is possible with any other system (working at full aperture).

But the important thing is that it gives you the best chance of reaching focus in your refractor. And if you can't reach focus, you will still have to use less GPC, so you still get a bigger true field than what you are getting now.

It is the Baader Standard Prism that is the magic in binoviewers. It is the best possible match for all telescopes because it keeps the light path as short as possible. And the quality in my own opinion is quite excellent.

Dude, get the Standard T2. I think they are all sold out now, but it is the best accessory in the binoviewer world in my own opinion, and for about $130, you can get the most out of your Mark V.

#18 dr.who

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

Thank you Eddgie. Using the prism diagonal does bring the price way back down to the point where it becomes a no brainer!

I am waiting to hear back from Bob at Alpine regarding OCS and diagonal he recommends with the ES 127.

I have a back of the napkin based calculation on the actual back focus so hopefully with that he will be able to recommend the right combination. If it comes in at a T-2 prism diagonal and 1.2X OCS or even (I hope) no OCS then I am in business!

#19 dr.who

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:46 PM

Quick update:

I did hear back from Mr. Siebert and per his email:

Me: Thank you for the quick response and for resending! I am a bit confused on something and I hope you can help. I would rather not have any magnification in the viewer so I can use my EP's at their native levels, for example if I use a 1.3 then I would take my 11mm EP's down to 8.46 mm (11/1.3=8.46), so I would want the one that is x1 and it would work fine in my ES refractor?


Him: If it has a 2" standard refractor diagonal then yes.

Me: I ask because I picked up a Baader from my local shop today and in order to make it work I had to use a Denkmeir nosepiece threaded into the front part of my 2" diagonal that goes into the focuser instead of the standard Baader 1.2x corrector threaded into the binoviewer attachment to the diagonal. There wasn't enough inward focus travel (the focuser was racked all the way in and still no focus) without it.

Him: The 1x OCA is a full compensation corrector and will not require in-travel once setup correctly in your scope. These can be used with my BN25mm binoviewer.


Me: So based on that information will that 1x work with the ES 127 or do I need something else like an actual diagonal like what Baader makes?

Him: A standard 2" refactor diagonal will do. My correctors are stand alone and will always solve these type of focus issues. The 1x OCA can come with a male T2 top to screw into the female T2 at the bottom of the Baader binoviewer. It can also come with a universal connector to interface with a standard 1.25" nosepiece that most binoviewers come with including my BN25mm.

Does this make sense or did I ask the questions in the wrong way...?

#20 johnnyha

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

In my opinion dr who, you are better off holding off on the Siebert OCA and first getting the Maxbright diagonal.

The GOAL is to achieve focus at 1X WITHOUT a corrector. You probably won't w/o a "bino-friendly" shorter tube, but you should check.

Personally, I would rather use the Maxbright prism (w/ 2" T2 nosepiece) and a 1.25X glasspath, than to use the Siebert 1X OCA and a regular 2" mirror diagonal. Sure you might get 1X with the Siebert, but that's by adding glass and with that Siebert OCA I think you risk vignetting certain eyepieces or cutting off aperture, etc. Ask Harry about that.

#21 dr.who

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

Thank you for that Johnny. That is something important to consider...

#22 dr.who

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:43 PM

Update-

Woodland Hills Telescope and Darkroom (my local shop) was kind enough to lend me a Denkmeir to test with including the 1.2x OCS. Last night at about 8:30 I saw the clouds clear and went out with the 127mm to test. These are my results.

I looked at (a small portion of) the double cluster, Orion nebula, and Jupiter.

I used two 11mm ES 82* EP's. I am using 11's because I don't have any other 1.25" EP's to test with at the moment.

I used an 8.8 mm ES EP as the starting point to make sure the objects were centered up. The reason for the 8.8 was that the ES 11's divided by 1.2 equals 9.16mm so the closest EP I had was the 8.8.

I tested the BV's with and without the OCS. I did this because the problem I was having with the Baader's were too little infocus whereas with the Denk's I was reaching focus with the focuser out almost half it's length so I was hoping for focus without the OCS.

I was able to reach focus with the OCS in the nosepiece of the stock ES diagonal with the focuser out about 4.5 inches. I was not able to reach focus without the OCS. This was expected but to be thorough I wanted to test it.

My results with the ES 127 are that the views of the DSO's were like I was looking at something in 3D. This part was fantastic. What was not fantastic was that the objects were so dim that it really took away from the experience. To the point where the 3D effect was overshadowed by how dark the views were making a BV a non-starter for this OTA for DSO viewing. Yes I understand why there was a light loss.

On Jupiter it was very nice and had the same 3D effect with acceptable levels of light loss. Were I primarily a planetary viewer a BV in this OTA would be a big win.

I plan to repeat this test this evening (clouds willing) in the C11. My expectation is that the views will be brighter. My hope is that they will be bright enough to justify a BV for me for this OTA.

As an aside the ES EP's perform very well in the Denk's. No problems with vignetting or anything else.

More (hopefully) to follow.

Thank you all again for your help on this!

#23 Eddgie

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:10 AM

I'm confused.. I did not know that Denkmeier had a 1.2x OCS configuration.

Where you using a Supersystem with a 1.3x low power arm?

#24 dr.who

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

Update Part II-

Based on the information gleaned from Eddgie's post regarding the actual magnification of the Denkmeir Format Correcting System (words taken from their web page to describe it) being higher than I was expecting it does explain the loss of light in terms of views. Per Eddgie if it's not used in a Denk diagonal then it would be a 1.3x or even 1.4x as opposed to the 1.2x I was expecting. Thus moving the EP's from a 9mm to an 8.4 or even 7.8.

Regardless it was still an unsatisfactory view in the APO.

I did test it last night with my 11" SCT. It was an abbreviated test with me looking at the Orion Nebula, Rigel, and Jupiter due to family obligations and clouds rolling in.

The C11 handled the Denk's much better than the ES 127mm in terms of brightness with much less light loss though it was still noticeable and did take away from the viewing enjoyment. Focus was easy to find and overall I think that were I to go down the BV path the only way I would use a pair was if it was on a 8" SCT or larger due to loss of light.

#25 Eddgie

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

This is why I asked about whether you were using the Demkmier.

Frankly, I fell as if the Denkmeier web page is a bit misleading in suggesting that the Supersystem gives 1.3x. At the least, they should have an asterisk with a disclaimer stating that the Denk (or similar) diagonal is required.


Otherwise, this mirrors my own experience. I just don't find them rewarding in my 6" APO. Even accounting for the extra magnification (1.4x maybe vs 1.3), the view still seemed very dim. Even on planets at 200x, I just could not get enough brightness to make the image work for me. In monovision, I get my best performace from my 6" APO at this power. I can go higher for bigger scale, but the image gets to dim I think for the lowest contrast detail to be easily visible.

But in the binoviewers, it was just to dim, and (I refuse to cut the tube) the inability to reach meaningful low powers leaves me a bit less than happy. with them binoviewers in that scope.

Even in the C14, I find that past about 300x using the binoviewers on planets, the image gets dim too. In fact I just bought a pair of Televue 40mm Plossls to see if I can punch up the deep sky performance a bit. Clusters are fine, but I feel as if some Nebula are a little to dim.

On the other hand, even though I am using a bit lower powers on planets than I used to, I feel as if I am seeing as much or more than before, and more comfortably.

And I am trying to use Binoviewers more, but I keep feeling like I am missing some brightness.

My plan it to bino exclusivly for another 6 months, then go out one night and start with binos, then switch to Mono to see if I get an "Oh Wow!" If I do, I may move more back to mono for much viewing and relegate the binos to planetary and doubles and things like that.






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