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Officina Stellare Veloce RH 200 First Light

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#51 Harel_Boren

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:32 AM

Knez and Harel I always process to show down to the noise. If there is no noise in your image you are throwing away signal.

Here is an animated gif from a crop of a stretched image to a tone mapped image with EasyHDR. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49....2013_01/NII.gif

This is a crop from Kfir Simons image of the same area with EasyHDR tone mapping and original. Animated gif. 5MB

http://d1355990.i49....13_01/KSrgb.gif

Note how tone mapping allows you to enhance very dimstuff down to the noise without blowing out the very bright areas or stars.

This is an animated gif of the same area from my NII image and Kfir Simons. Both tone mapped.

http://d1355990.i49....1/NII_KSrgb.gif


You can judge for yourselves what is noise or signal in the very dim areas.

What the last animated gif also shows is that the RH200 can hold its own with an astrograph with 2.5 times the focal length and twice the aperture.

I am sure Kfir Simons image has far more fine detail than shown here due to jpg artefacts in the image of his I had to work with.

Here is his whole image tone mapped 6MB

http://d1355990.i49...._easyHDR_10.jpg

It would be even more stunning if I could use the 16 bit full resolution data.


Thanks for your input Harel no one of us has all the knowledge. I hope I have also helped rather than hindered.

Bert


Thanks Bert, and thanks for the work invested in making the comparison.

First, I think that since both images are processed, it is somewhat hard to make a judgment, but what is certainly clear is that the Veloce has given you very good data.

Secondly, I am not sure about how this compares with Kfir's image, as the former is so over-processed and over-saturated, that it would be harsh to say that the end result ought to be indicative of the original quality of the data.

In other words, I can see (from your image and my own raw data, posted above) that the Veloce delivers some very good data; but I can't say it's better than what the Dream Scope delivered, since the processing has completely ruined it. I would love to think the Veloce does better than another super-scope of 16", but given the circumstances, this conclusion is not substantiated by the available information.

A general note - I love images which are easy on the processing trigger. I thus am always attracted to see more of Steve Leshin's, Tom Davis's, Jim Thomas's, JPM's and many others. I think that the Veloce's quality of data (just as the Dream's) is simply superb. By any standard. With such data one can lay down the arms, and process easy. Hard and over-saturated will get a "wow" from the crowd, but doesn't move anything in my heart.

Finally, I love such deep discussions on the hobby. They really make my day :-)

Cheers,
Harel

#52 orion69

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:02 PM

I could put up a stack if you want it.


Could you, please, unprocessed stack?

Thanks

#53 mikeschuster

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

Thank you Bert, for me no need for a stack. How was seeing when you captured this one?
Mike

#54 Bert

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:52 PM

Here Knez 14MB

http://d1355990.i49....13_01/RZ_P1.zip

7x8 min 3nm NII PL16803 at -35C

Seeing fair. I am only 16km from Melbourne. Fortunately there is a lot of parkland to my East and South.

Bert

Bert

#55 orion69

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:12 AM

Thanks Bert!

I'll try to process it over weekend.

#56 Harel_Boren

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:57 PM

Mmm... I can't wait to see that result Knez!
Cheers,
Harel

#57 Bert

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:42 PM

I was not going to tell you this Harel but the 'noise' is really faint stars blurred by very slight flexure. If it was real system noise you would see it in the very dark dusty areas.

I have just fixed this last little bit of flexure by bolting a stabilizing bar between the two dovetails of my side by side.

It seems the camera and CFW just put too much torsion on the image train dovetail due to gravity at slowly changing orientations with changing lateral forces that cause flexure.

The RH200 meanwhile is sitting very stable and not moving while the dovetail it is bolted to is twisting at its rear due to a too heavy image train.

I measured this flexure before and after and it is almost gone.

Here is a bigger image where you can see the dial indicator and the rest in better detail.

http://d1355990.i49....2013_01/IMG.jpg

Tonights images will tell all!

Bert

Attached Files



#58 orion69

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

OK, here is processed Bert's image the way I usually process my H-Alpha images. To be frank I do not know much more than I knew before and main reason for that is that I never imaged this object before with my setup. So it's very hard for me to judge RH200 performance without direct comparison with my telescope.
But I will try to make some observation: at first glance I don't see much improvement in resolution (but I could be very wrong for reasons I mentioned before) over my setup. Secondly, I think there is some lack of contrast compared to refractor. Also, I still think that there should be more subs (probably 2x) which would help with contrast.
Camera pixels could explain lack of resolution, 9um, image scale 3.09 arcsec/pixel which is not optimal.
Final question is: is there enough reason to buy RH200 and shoot with Atik 383L+ mono or maybe Atik 460 mono?
Very hard decision but based on what I have seen so far I must say no.
But I could be (very) wrong.
Luckily, I have at least 6 months to decide... :)

Bert's processed image (cropped to 2560x1600, usual resolution for my pictures):

Posted Image

#59 Gleason

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:05 PM

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us...eadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg

#60 orion69

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:21 PM

Your link does not work.

#61 Gleason

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:09 PM

Sorry about that. The hosting service has totally locked out the image url.

j

#62 Bert

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:51 PM

This is last nights test images.


LMC 3nm NII, 5x32 minutes exposure, PL16803 at -30C, all fits images are upsized before stacking by a factor of X1.5. 11MB

http://d1355990.i49....1/LMC_NII_M.jpg

NGC3576 and surrounds, 6x32 minutes. All other conditions same as LMC image. 10MB

http://d1355990.i49....1/NGC3576_M.jpg

Bolting down the tail of the dovetail worked!

Bert

Attached Files



#63 Bert

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:56 PM

NGC3576

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#64 orion69

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:22 AM

If "real clear" aperture is around 170mm does that mean that system is really F/3.52, not F/3?

#65 Harel_Boren

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

No Kenz,
F isn't defined by real clear etc.
You can read more about the implication of obstruction (also on contrast) here:
http://www.telescope...obstruction.htm
Regarding definition accomplished - you can check out the "leaping puma" feature in the rosettte I've posted above (and in another post on this forum). That feature is 12 min. across and comes through very sharply (not through artificial sharpening) through what seems like making the best of the 1.85 pixel per arcsec that this system (the Veloce and the SBIG 8300M) can produce.
Cheers,
Harel

#66 mikeschuster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:30 AM

Kenz,
One way to think about the aperture obstruction: The obstruction blocks photons, so photons per pixel per unit time goes down. To compensate expose longer by the obstruction factor, and you will end up capturing the same number of photons and hence get the same SNR as an unobstructed equivalent. OR you can buy a camera with a higher QE by the same factor and accomplish the equivalent. So obstruction does impact the "speed" of the optic. The RH200 is in fact slower than an unobstructed f3 setup with the same aperture.
Mike

#67 Harel_Boren

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

Kenz,
One way to think about the aperture obstruction: The obstruction blocks photons, so photons per pixel per unit time goes down. To compensate expose longer by the obstruction factor, and you will end up capturing the same number of photons and hence get the same SNR as an unobstructed equivalent. OR you can buy a camera with a higher QE by the same factor and accomplish the equivalent. So obstruction does impact the "speed" of the optic. The RH200 is in fact slower than an unobstructed f3 setup with the same aperture.
Mike


... But it's faster than any obstructed aperture of a longer f ratio, eg f4...
Cheers,
Harel

#68 Bert

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

Knez I prefer to think that the RH200 has a central obstruction the size of an FSQ106 with nearly three times the area (x2.63) in the annulus of the RH200 of a single FSQ106 collecting photons to my sensor.

If a 'FSQ170' was possible I would get one.

This three hour image 10MB from above

http://d1355990.i49....1/NGC3576_M.jpg

would have taken close to eight hours with an FSQ106. Longer to get to the same signal to noise ratio.

My main aim is to make mosaics of very dim objects and it is very useful to get more than one panel per imaging night.

The other consideration is that a full image data set can be collected while the object is effectively at or close to the zenith. With the PMX mount able to go two hours past the zenith without doing a meridian flip and the speed of the RH200 very deep data can be collected in one night, all within two hours of the zenith.

Bert

#69 Harel_Boren

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:55 AM

Hi Bert,

Why would you decide to purposefully lose resolution by going down from the Veloce's D=200mm (or the Powernewt's D-200mm) to the (imaginary) FSQ170 D=170mm?

A scope is not only its ability to serve as a light-bucket. It comprises a set of attributes which delivers a result.

Cheers,
Harel

#70 orion69

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:48 PM

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us...eadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg


Gleason, I just managed to download image and I must say I'm very impressed! You say this was shot under light of many streetlights? Do you plan to shoot some more images in near future, possibly some dimmer objects?

Well, your image certainly shows RH200 in completely different light...
I compared your image with another of the same object, nearly same total time, but shot with NP127is and although other image is excellent, your is in every aspect much better!

I'll show your picture on croatian forum to discuss it, if it's alright with you.

#71 orion69

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

Bert and Harel, I just noticed, is there a reason why you don't use OAG?

#72 Harel_Boren

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us...eadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg


Gleason, I just managed to download image and I must say I'm very impressed! You say this was shot under light of many streetlights? Do you plan to shoot some more images in near future, possibly some dimmer objects?

Well, your image certainly shows RH200 in completely different light...
I compared your image with another of the same object, nearly same total time, but shot with NP127is and although other image is excellent, your is in every aspect much better!

I'll show your picture on croatian forum to discuss it, if it's alright with you.


I can't Agee more.
This is a very impressive result.

Cheers,
harel

#73 Gleason

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

Several months ago I took delivery of the Officina Stellare RH200 F/3. I've not given up on the fabulous FSQ, as this is mostly more about my interest in very fast imaging systems going back to my long exposure Schmidt camera days. After a multitude of fine adjusments to collimation and tip tilt, I got this official first light last night before the latest storm.

http://imageshack.us...eadbetatest.jpg


12 x 600s accumulated exposure time
6nm HA filter bandpass.
SBIG STL 11000
San Jose, California

This image was shot within San Jose city limits among about a million streetlights. The camera is a first gen STL 11000 and so is the 6nm AD Ha filter. Sky transparency was very hazy. Meaning, that much better contrast and detail are possbile from a dark site, and certanly a 3nm high transmission bandpass would isolate finer structures in the ionization curtain behind the Horsehead.

The telescope mechanics benefit greatly with the incorporation of a tip/tilt back plate, as f/3 is unforgiving of any array tilt. Let's just say a 10th of a turn of the tip/tilt screw will make a difference.

Cheers,

jg


Gleason, I just managed to download image and I must say I'm very impressed! You say this was shot under light of many streetlights? Do you plan to shoot some more images in near future, possibly some dimmer objects?

Well, your image certainly shows RH200 in completely different light...
I compared your image with another of the same object, nearly same total time, but shot with NP127is and although other image is excellent, your is in every aspect much better!

I'll show your picture on croatian forum to discuss it, if it's alright with you.


I can't Agee more.
This is a very impressive result.

Cheers,
harel



Hey Gents,

I've been out of pocket a bit, and in fact could not easily find my way back to this page.

Another Look at RH-200 Results

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've added a considerable amount of data to the RH-200 view of the Horsehead. This is a 100% resolution crop from the STL1100, representing about 1/4 of of the entire field - I like this composition but also good to show full res capability of this little instrument at 9um pixels.

Data:
Officina Stellare RH200 f/3 Riccardi-Honders
SBIG STL11000
6nm Ha filter
35 x 600s total exposure time.
Non linear curves and levels only in PS
Star Spike sofware was used on the higher res image.
Location: San Jose, California

Comments:

Future narrowband work can benefit from longer exposures. 20 minute subs from a rural location would be quite spectacular for signal gathering. I really need more urban light pollution blocking. 3nm might be best here but I worry about bandwidth shift at f/3. I am using a first gen AstroDon 6nm filter in the old STL camera for now.

I am finding this instrument to be quite stable with temp changes. So far, it has been a set and forget instrument during image runs.

No differential flexure in a test 40 minute sub from the city using the STI guider and Officina Stellare tube rings.

http://img26.imagesh...adnewcroppe.jpg

And here is a 50% resolution of the entire field. Curves adjusted a bit to show the extent of the nebulae

http://img812.images...adnew50perc.jpg

Feel free to do whatever you want with these. The potential of the RH200 is there with many short exposures from the city.

#74 orion69

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Gleason, thanks for new images, looks like I found my next astrograph...

Just wondering what would be results with Atik 460 mono, camera I intent to use with RH200, couldn't find that combination on the net.

You say you focus one time and it's good all night? If that's the case there is no reason to buy focuser motor.

Please when you shoot some dimmer objects feel free to let us know.

#75 Gleason

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:06 PM

Gleason, thanks for new images, looks like I found my next astrograph...

Just wondering what would be results with Atik 460 mono, camera I intent to use with RH200, couldn't find that combination on the net.

You say you focus one time and it's good all night? If that's the case there is no reason to buy focuser motor.

Please when you shoot some dimmer objects feel free to let us know.


I would get the focus motor which allows precision adjustments that are not possible by hand. Within a few degrees the scope has been stable. I would also go for the accessory tube rings instead of the single arm dovetail support bar. I'll look to some very faint Ha objects with this scope in the near future.

Here is a 24 x 600s Rosetta taken with the same camera on the RH200

http://img69.imagesh...h200rosetta.jpg






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