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Icodome now converting DSLRs to true monochrome

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#76 Jim Chung

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:34 PM

Just delivered a Nikon D90 and a D5100 to two new users!


Skyguy, I think that there is not complete uniformity in the Bayer layer removal process but the use of flat frame subtraction should address this. These cameras are not intended to replaced dedicated cooled mono astro cameras.

#77 orlyandico

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:40 AM

BTW Jim. Someone I know bought a Maxmax (as you know those are quite expensive). They also don't have complete uniformity in the removal of the Bayer filter. Particularly at the edges of the sensor but even across the center there can be some banding.

#78 Jim Chung

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:38 AM

Thanks, that's good to know!

#79 JustinLT

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

The rosette nebula picture is stunning and this option would be clearly a no brainer for someone, who cannot afford expensive mono CCD (well, APS-C size mono camera costs a fortune for sure), but...
The whole picture looks like it would be taken through some clouds or there is something split on the sensor. On the edges of the nebula (apparently it is all over the picture) there are some artificial nebulosity, that shouldn't be there or at least look like that, according to all the pictures on the internet taken with CCD. I wonder what is it. In other case I would be already ordering the camera.

#80 orlyandico

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:38 PM

the artificial nebulosity is due to non-perfect removal of the bayer sensor. as i noted above, even the $2000 maxmax mono DSLRs have these issues.

i think a flat could get rid of them. you really have no choice if you want a cheap APS-C mono sensor.

Jim, do you think you could post an image that has been processed with flats? i'm sure everyone wants to know how bad the non-uninformity is and if it can be removed. i see no reason why not.

#81 JustinLT

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:33 PM

Would be nice if you could post the flat picture as well.

#82 orlyandico

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:57 PM

maybe the flat looks terrible and would turn off potential customers.

but the reality is even terrible looking flats subtract out nicely.

#83 JustinLT

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:58 AM

Well, if they are willing to attract more customers, there are few main steps they need to do:
1. Provide the unprocessed picture (already done). From this we saw, how the process negatively affects the sensor. Without further details, this will hold many folks back from buying this modification.
2. Provide the flat samples of at least 2 cameras. In this way the community will see, what is the actual damage to the sensor and how the debayering process affects the image quality.
3. Provide a flat subtracted and processed image. Would be even more convenient, if community could have a chance to process few light images + few flat images, so people that are interested could see, how the technique works for them on this current mod.

Well, at least this is my thinking. I was one step close to make an order, before I saw the signs of bayer removal. I did some digging on the internet, so one guy used a dremmel with sponge and some abbrasive material to wipe the microlenses and CFA, the daylight mono pictures looked realyl nice, but once he posted a flat, it was terrible as there were visible uneven patterns of polishing.
I suppose more convenient way is to use some chemical solutions, as the CFA are polymers and can be decomposed, but not sure if this does not affect the photodiodes underneath. Would be interesting as well to hear, what technique is being used (if not a big secret, but it must be either polishing or chemical treatment), but even solutions are leaving micro particles on the sensor as none of them is 100% pure.

#84 Jim Chung

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:07 PM

Hi Justin (?),

I'll be happy to provide some flats examples. Just a little busy with my regular job. I have no problem revealing that this a solvent based process because that is the simple part of it. The rest of the procedure requires surgical skills performed under a microscope with the stress that one false move could ruin several hundred dollars worth of DSLR!

regards,


Jim

#85 orlyandico

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:29 AM

Let me guess... using a needle to gently scrape off the softened bayer layer under a binocular microscope?

Doesn't sound like a great deal of fun... and doesn't seem terribly profitable either (unless you've gotten it to the point that you can perform the operation quickly, from long experience) - or, like that guy who carves statues and scenery out of matchsticks, you like the challenge :grin:

http://www.odditycen...om-matchstic...


I think that's the reason why Maxmax charges $2000 for a modded Canon 450D...

#86 JustinLT

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

Well, the most accurate job would be to use oxygen plasma reactor and do the same descumming process as it is done during litography of the sensor. Sometimes it is good to think "go back to the start", as you can remove the bayer matrix the same way it was done during litography. I don't think something would be more accurate than a particle based process. Oh, and oxygen plasma affects polymer based materials (like CFA), but does not affect the glass. If I'm not mistaken, there is a thin glass layer below the CFA aray to cover the photodiodes.
Well, small issue: you would only require about 10k+ USD for the mini lab grade plasma reactor, though it's not that much. Well, I'm sure smart guys can do it at home, you need to create vacuum and some electromagnetic field and flow oxygen through it (some even tried to do nuclear reactors :)). Bus someone interested in the mono DSLR business could consider this option. Maybe MaxMax guys are doing the same, but I think it's solvent as well.
I'm not sure, but with such equipment maybe it would be possible even to create mini lens arrays, as you lose some QE when you remove those, but it would be terribly difficult process to measure. So, plasma etched mono sensor+minilens array(if possible, but hardly)+decent cooling technology and you have something relatively close to CCD camera. Now what would be the difference between APS-C size DSLR and same size CCD camera? What about full frame sensor? Price difference would be 5-10 times (depending on DSLR and CCD). Here's the business plan on the table.
Now, who is smart and brave enough to do that? :)
Oh, and I know those plasma guys can help and determine if it works by doing tests on their lab. I suppose all you need is several broken sensors and few for final tests.
Damn... I talk too much...

#87 poita

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:51 PM

If I can see some flats, then I am in!






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