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Introduction and my project

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#1 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

Hi everyone.

I’m not new to cloudy nights on the classified side, but I’ve posted very little here in the forums. I wanted to introduce myself as I have just made a purchase of a classic scope and wanted, quite frankly, a little help with it. I believe most here are over qualified!

The telescope in question comes from Paul in New York. He has taken quite good care of it and it is in very nice condition. I want to restore it to new or better than new condition.

I have been in contact with Jon Miles (PiSigma) and have read his incredible restoration project of his Super chrome deluxe. I followed (aveman’s threads also and scoured his website for info. I’ve also read almost everything here in the forum on the subject. It has truly inspired me to complete a restoration fitting for this historical scope. . I can say I am a bit handy with tools and I’m usually not squeamish about taking things apart. That said, I realize there are no second chances with some of the parts. I need help on proper ways to do certain things. I have to say I admire the depth of knowledge when someone here explained the proper way to separate the glass in a finder objective, “To separate the main refractor glass objective, boil in a solution of sulfuric acid” How do you guys know this stuff??

Of course I know the answer, experience and knowledge. OK, I’m not trying to stroke everyone’s egos, just recognizing a knowledgeable source of information that Classic Telescopes brings to the Internet. I believe I’m in good hands.

And now for the scope in question: Cave Astrola 10” F6 Super chrome deluxe.

I was hesitant in posting this, as I am not in possession of the scope yet. It still resides in New York with Paul. I’ve made arraignments to pick it up when I visit NEAF in April (if I can wait that long!). I have some questions and I need to aquire a few parts to complete the project and I figured I could get started, as parts may not be readily available.

Well, that’s about it to start. I would like to thank you all in advance for any support you can give me. I will be posting here and to a Google+ page with updates. I will have lots of pictures and videos on the Google+ page ; everything from picking up the scope up and talking with the previous owner Paul, to polishing on the bench, and of course, implementing your suggestions.

I’m 60 years young, my wife and I live in Canfield Oh (NE Ohio) and I am involved in astrophotography. This would be my second restoration.

PS: I’ve got pictures!

Turk
Tom Terleski

#2 dgreyson

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

Hi Turk! I've got a 12.5 cave that I am in the process of restoring too. Hopefully, we wont need any boiling Sulfuric acid, but a lot of elbow work is definitely going to be in order.

#3 Grava T

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:53 PM

Hello Turk! There are many members here with experienced restoration techniques but I am not one of them. Problem is that I don't have a workshop/garage nor the space to build one and my wife would string me up if I started sanding metal or painting in the apartment.

I will be following your post though and look forward to seeing some photos along the way. Good luck and happy restoring.

#4 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

+dgreyson
I hope acid is not in my future. I do have a great bench grinder with assorted pads and a nice dremmel that should get a workout.

+Gravat
My son's wife has a table saw in their living room! They have an apartment also. Doesn't stop them!

I will get some photos up here.

Turk

#5 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

Here is the "before" picture. Not bad at a distance, but can need some help in some areas.

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#6 sgorton99

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think it looks pretty nice now! How fun with your project.
Steve

#7 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

I think it looks pretty nice now! How fun with your project.
Steve


It wasn't a "hidden in a barn" find, and I paid a bit more for it. It does have it's flaws.

Here is another pict of the mount. There is no DEC motor, something I would like to add to this. It also has no controller.

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#8 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

The chrome is a bit shabby in areas also

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#9 starman876

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

wish i had a shabby looking cave like that

#10 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

wish i had a shabby looking cave like that


Sorry :o Just trying to be a bit humble. I do appreciate it's condition.

Here is the mirror:

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#11 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:52 PM

and another of the mirror.

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#12 chuck52

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

Hi Turk!
Congrats on the scope purchase.I too am in the process of a Cave restoration, a 10 inch F7. This is my first attempt at a scope restoration and like you I have read many of the fine threads on Cave refurbishment in this forum.I will be anxious to see your progress! I dont think I could wait till April though!

#13 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:21 PM

Hi chuck

I'm worried I won't make it to April either. I have lots of other work to finish before I begin this project. But I hear it calling and my wife will always take a long weekend to go to NYC. :jump:

#14 Grava T

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:26 PM

Looks nice. You're gonna have a lot of fun with it. I had a 6" f/8 Cave Student Standard once and the views were amazing.

#15 dgreyson

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

Here is another pict of the mount. There is no DEC motor, something I would like to add to this. It also has no controller.


You have the Declination clutch and mounting plate. The motor it uses is scarce and expensive $200+ as it's a reversable gearmotor but they can be found. The real problem is getting the coupling gear that mates the motor shaft to the worm. it's fixed on the motor shaft and if you do not have the old motor you will need to fit a flexible coupler or something to the worm shaft to drive it.. Hopefully, if you do not have the motor gear, maybe one of the other readers has a spare one.

Stalled synchronus motors can be rejuvinated if you have one and it seems dead as long as the gear train is intact.

The controller is a small rectangular utility box that fits in your hand comfortable, it has two SPST N.O. pushbuttons and a motor capacitor and has a three wire cable that goes to the main clock drive and should plug into a socket there. Mine has a round DIN plug and socket. So the only bottle necks are having a motor and it's coupling gear. The rest are off the shelf items you can get fron Newark or Digi-Key.

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#16 dgreyson

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

Here is a photo of the control box and the dec motor. Notice the coupling gear on the end of the motor shaft. Since you have a slow motion knob on the dec gear, you likely are missing both sides of the coupler. Flexible couplers are readily available from various industrial supplies.

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#17 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:01 PM

Here is another pict of the mount. There is no DEC motor, something I would like to add to this. It also has no controller.


You have the Declination clutch and mounting plate.


Are you saying all I am missing is the motor and of course the connector? I need to find an Astrola gravesite. If anyone has a motor I would certainly be happy to buy it off you.

Im not so worried about finding the control box as it can be made pretty close to original. Looked like a simple aluminum box. Has anyone drawn a schematic of the wiring? That would be useful.

Turk

#18 PiSigma

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:42 PM

There is a great schematic on the Cavetelescopes Yahoo group in the files section. Not sure if this link works if you are not a member:

Cave wiring schematic with Dec drive

#19 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

Got it. That's great Jon. Guess I wish I was dealing with 12v DC, but I'm sure I can get through it. If I'm not mistaken, didn't your cave have an aluminum box with two red buttons? Different than the one posted here earlier.

Turk

#20 PiSigma

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:11 PM

Yes. Here's mine. I have a letter from the original owner to Cave complaining about it being damaged in shipping. He never fixed it. Left is original paint and still bent, right is after restoration. Painted Rustoleum hammered silver. But I think later ones were black.

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#21 dgreyson

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

Are you saying all I am missing is the motor and of course the connector? I need to find an Astrola gravesite. If anyone has a motor I would certainly be happy to buy it off you.


There is a round cylindrical shield that keeps children and small dogs from jamming the worm gear, The motor, which just bolts on w four bolts, the motor to worm coupling, a 3 conductor wire that goes from the motor - is clipped to the RA shaft casing w semicircular clips and enters a hole in the back case of the clock drive on the side opposite of your photos. If the wire holder clips are gone those can still be had or easily made. Look on the side of the polar axis casing, you should see two clips or small two holes where they were. Perhaps plugged up. I suppose someone who had it before you couldnt get a replacement motor and just stripped it all off. Or maybe they ony used it visually and liked climbing up and down a step stool to go turn the slow mo knob. You may also be missing the motor mount, it has four bolt holes and is screwed onto the semicircular base plate. A photo of the business end of the worm with the knob removed would tell the tale.

Mind you, there seems to be great variations in design with Caves, All I know really is from working on my own Cave and what I remember seeing back in the day. Some of the more serious minded collectors can illustrate and discourse on what's needed far better than I surely.

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#22 Datapanic

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

Hopefully you aren't missing the motor mount bracket - that is probably a part that would be very hard to find but a copy could be made.

Cave used at least a couple different kinds of Motors - mainly Hurst for the early models and Bristol for the later years. I think Hurst Motors were also used for the larger models in the later years. The reversible Hurst motors required a single capacitor while the Bristol motors used a capacitor and resistor. The diagrams can be found online.

I think most of the Dec motors (either brand) were 1RPM, however a 2RPM or 1/2RPM makes a good substitute. I actually prefer the 2RPM because its slew speed, at least with the Tangent Arm Dec Controls seem to more closely match the speed of the Clock Drive running with a variable frequency control providing 40/60/80Hz. But, I have a different setup with a home-made dual axis frequency control box and one hand control so I can easily move in both axises if needed.

Overall, your scope looks to be in pretty good shape with only a minor amount of rust to deal with and it seems to have all the parts, except for the Dec Shaft Lock Knob, which really isn't needed if you have a slo-mo Dec Control. Maybe it was added on at some point. The Latitude Adjuster is definitely an addon, but a very functional thing to have.

#23 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

Are you saying all I am missing is the motor and of course the connector? I need to find an Astrola gravesite. If anyone has a motor I would certainly be happy to buy it off you.


There is a round cylindrical shield that keeps children and small dogs from jamming the worm gear, The motor, which just bolts on w four bolts, the motor to worm coupling, a 3 conductor wire that goes from the motor - is clipped to the RA shaft casing w semicircular clips and enters a hole in the back case of the clock drive on the side opposite of your photos. If the wire holder clips are gone those can still be had or easily made. Look on the side of the polar axis casing, you should see two clips or small two holes where they were. Perhaps plugged up. I suppose someone who had it before you couldnt get a replacement motor and just stripped it all off. Or maybe they ony used it visually and liked climbing up and down a step stool to go turn the slow mo knob.


Unfortunately I do not have possession of the scope yet. It is in NY until April. I will revisit this once I get it and am able to examine it. I know one thing, I don't like climbing up and down a step stool to move the DEC axis!

#24 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:31 PM

I knew I should have waited to start this thread. Now I know I'm going to have to get it before April. :foreheadslap:

#25 turk123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

I think most of the Dec motors (either brand) were 1RPM, however a 2RPM or 1/2RPM makes a good substitute. I actually prefer the 2RPM because its slew speed, at least with the Tangent Arm Dec Controls seem to more closely match the speed of the Clock Drive running with a variable frequency control providing 40/60/80Hz. But, I have a different setup with a home-made dual axis frequency control box and one hand control so I can easily move in both axises if needed.


So what your saying is that there is a replacement motor that I could purchase as a replacement for the original? Do you have a link or part number for them?

That was my only fear in purchasing this one. The DEC motor was missing and possibly the mount for it. In leu of finding a cave motor, a new motor would work for me. I want to keep it as close to original as possible, but I will give that up for functionality. It is important for me to also use this as intended.

Turk






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