Is this performance typical of G11?
Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:11 PM
Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:18 PM
What type of optics? Reflector? Maybe it's mirror flop or flexure? Is it slow steady drift? Or is it back and forth?
The Mach 1 is a great mount, but if you have a problem with your image train or mounting, the mount won't fix it.
Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:21 PM
I'm willing to give this mount one more chance in the form of a replacement worm gear. If that doesn't fix it then that's about all I am willing to take from equipment that doesn't perform.
That's not counting all the little bugs like the occasional runaway declination guiding.
Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:01 PM
My CGEM with 40" periodic error and 20" of 8/3 harmonic (which, I am assured by Celestron, is not typical - most CGEM's are around 20" and 7" of 8/3 harmonic) can do 1.8" RMS all day.
Is that 1.6" RMS with long-ish guide exposures? (at least 4 seconds?)
Maybe the roundness of your stars doesn't have much to do with that 1.6" of RMS guiding error. I just started using my C9.25 (2350mm focal length) un-reduced with my Mach1. Due to a variety of issues (cheap $75 tripod, unbalanced load due to not having enough weights) with the C9.25 loaded my RMS guiding error has degraded to about 0.9" - but I still get round stars at native FL (image scale of 0.68"/pixel).
So if I can get round stars at 0.9" at double your FL (10-minute exposures) then I suspect at the much more friendly 1260mm, 1.6" RMS should be just fine.
A lot of folks use G11s for much longer focal lengths than 1.2m so I know the mounts are capable.
Can you post a PHD guiding graph?
I suspect you have some declination guiding issue..
Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:17 PM
It took me a while to tweak PHD settings to get highest guiding quality. It varies from mount to mount, scope to scope and location to location. Which looks worse: RA or Dec axis? Do you have graphs for both axis? If Dec looks worse, then maybe backlash? If the stars are ovals, what direction: Dec or RA?
If you are using OAG, what autoguider are you using? Poor quality guide star (too dim or crescent shape) can affect guiding and if your camera is insensitive, then autoguiding software can have issues. I have read that Maxim autoguider is pretty sensitive to strange shaped stars especially off axis from OAG. I use PHD and it does not mind the crescent shape stars.
You may need to do process of elimination outside of the mount before blaming the mount.
This is my typical PHD settings for C-8 EdgeHD at F/10 or 2000mm focal length using A-P Mach1 mount:
RA Aggressiveness: 60
RA Hysteresis: 10
Max Dec Duration: 75
Min Motion: 0.70
Calibration Steps: 125msec
Extreme dithering and Settled at < 0.5
3 - 4 sec guiding exposure.
Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:18 PM
But it has met and exceeded all my expectations. I have spent literally years tweaking and working on my CGEM and AP600. The Mach1 is the first mount I've experienced that simply works out of the box, and keeps on working even when abused (badly unbalanced load).
The first night I got it, I was so delighted with the guiding, I failed to notice that the CP3 controller had gotten so hot I scalded my hand touching it. Turns out the RA worm block was very tight against the worm wheel (must have gotten knocked that way during transportation). But it still kept on chugging and putting up its 3.5" p-p periodic error..
Sure it has its shortcomings. The worst is the 1-star alignment. No pointing model. But.. in my opinion it's better to spend $6.6K for one, than $3.6K for a G11 Gemini 2. Doesn't really help you, I know..
Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:51 AM
Now with regards to some of the questions. It's not declination guiding, for Declination I get an RMS of around 0.5 +/- 0.1
I use MaximDL to guide, I can't use a separate program because my camera is integrated into the filter wheel and you can not address the camera from two different programs at the same time. This puts PHD out of the question.
I am getting slightly distorted stars on my cam (the OAG that's built into the STT-8300) But the reason I don't think that's the reason is that the problem is consistently with the RA axis.
If somebody can teach me how to pull the logs out of MaximDL I'll gladly post them here.
Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:47 AM
I am surprised that a G11 would behave that way, so many people have success with the G11. But I have never had one.
When I got my AP600, I thought my mount woes were over. But it is a 20-year old design, and it has its limitations. Needless to say, it wasn't "perfect."
The Mach1 is perfect. So far. Have only had a few hours' worth of use on it.
Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:23 AM
Is your experience with the g11 typical? No, but hardly unprecedented. Have others had problems getting the tracking accuracy out of the G11 that they really want? Absolutely. Needing to spend time tweaking, adjusting, replacing worms, issues with Oldham couplers and poor quality bearings... That is very common. Based on my own experiences with the Mach 1, all these problems just go away. I have used a Mach1 very successfully for years now coupled to an Eagle portable pier. It has handled a 48 pound imaging load at 2,100mm focal length with no problems. On one memorable night I even managed an image with 3.5" FWHM stars with 20 - 30 knot wind gusts! Why bother on that night? I had driven 400 miles for dark skies, and there was no way I was going to let the transparency go to waste!
Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:36 AM
Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:59 AM
astronomical asociation has 1.
Had a lot of problems with it where the RA-motor was bad.
Also the controller burned out.
I dismantled the whole thing, cleaned, relubed and mounted
everything again.Mecanically I have to say that is is a
VERY decently built mount.
The worst part IMHO are the worm-blocks, independant
square blocks where the worm rides in.
This is a very bad solution, where the Ovision worm
solution is much better, there are a lot of test reports
out there on the web.
What guiding aplication are you using?? PHD, Metaguide,
I never had any sucess at all with PHD, then switched over
to Metaguide and bingo, all gooder, better and wonderfuller.
Just my 2
Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:41 PM
I believe you have the new one piece worm with the brass high precision worm on your RA, Correct? If you do then I would suspect that the mesh isn't dialed in. It is easier with the OPW than the old worm block system, but it isn't a cake walk DAMHKIT. My G11 would do round stars using a Meade 10"f4 SNT with a 4x Powermate to a Meade DSI & a 90mmf4 Ioptron as a OAG & MaxinDL. It wasn't easy to get it to work, I had a LOT of flexture problems, balance problems, firmware problems, etc. I had been evolving my G11 from DCS's & was also in a observatory as you are. There were times I wanted to take mine to the dump as well. You're setup should work.
I was about to post this & remembered something else. Are you balancing slight heavy to the east? You don't need much, 500g is fine, but it needs to be there to keep the RA mesh snug. I think there is a mod in the Losmandy forum that helps address this, but I couldn't find it. It basically had a string wrapped around the RA & a weight on the end to keep the mount biased to the east. You would lift the weight, get the mount in perfect balance, then let the weight hang free, effectively biasing the mount to the east. I can't remember where I saw it or how it was done, but I do remember the hanging weight.
I believe Hilmi's mount has G2, & the OPW, they don't use Oldham couplers, they have a different type, no more Oldham coupler stickage issues. The OPW also becomes a module when assembled, you adjust the entire module for the gear mesh & clearance.
Clear Dark Skies
Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:58 PM
My theory is that if this was a seeing induced problem it would hqve impacted both axis. Not just RA. Maybe as a last ditch effort I should go for the ovision worm. At least that comes with consice directions on how adjust and install
Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:10 PM
Even that guy who suggested I spill some chicken blood on the worm block while dressed in a loin cloth. Everybody says it works once you get the hang of it but no concise instructions.
Are you sure your chicken was a virgin?
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:04 PM
The chicken doesn't matter, Hilmi has to be the virgin, Uh Oh
Clear Dark Skies
Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:22 PM
Edit: O-vision worm for sale on A-mart. Located on Hilmi's side of the Earth.
Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:14 PM
Looking at buying direct from the manufacturer.
Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:54 AM
Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:56 AM
Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:30 AM
What is the time period of the RA jump? That should give you a clue as to where it's coming from.
Clear Dark Skies
Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:15 PM
Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:59 AM
Can you try the same thing on your side Contraf15? Measure PE without guiding.
Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:13 AM
maybe try loosening the RA worm engagement. i have no G11 but on my CGEM, when the RA slack is very small (tight worm-to-gear mesh) there are a lot of problems. These go away when the worm is looser.
Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:14 AM
Hilmi I will try to get a PE measurement within the next couple of days.