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? Orion Giant 25x100mm = Oberwerk 25x100 IF ?

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#1 Jarrod

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:50 PM

They look the same to my untrained eye. Are they? What other binoculars with similar objective and price should I be looking at? Finally, is there any chance that these would work on this tripod, which is rated to support up to 7lbs? It worked adequately with a pair of Celestron Skymaster 20x80mm that I already returned:

http://www.amazon.co...ils_o00_s01_i00

#2 faackanders2

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

I use a camera tripod (that I had) with my 25x100 Appogee binos. It does work and is good as a small light weight travel set (since my family won't always let me take my large dob). However there is some shake, which got worse by adding orion's precision fine tuner (but the fine tuner made objects easier to center and eliminated the course overshoot). Needless to say, you get what you pay for.

P.S. I tried the Orion parallogram which couldn't effectivly handle the weight, and I have yet to upgrade to a heavier parallogram which is nuch more expensive than the binos themself.

Ken

#3 Rich V.

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:59 PM

Both these binoculars are from the same source in China; the specs appear to be the same but vendors have options regarding some of these specs. It's nearly impossible to tell if they have any minor differences. I'd expect them to be very similar.

Both vendors have excellent customer service.

Regarding the tripod, forget about it. That would be an accident waiting to happen with a 10# binocular... :( You need a tripod that is taller than you are by 10" or so with these long binos. The tripod you linked to is only 60" tall.

This is the type of tripod/head I would consider the minimum for a binocular of this size/weight:

Garrett 5000 tripod/head

Rich

#4 BobinKy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

I use a camera tripod (that I had) with my 25x100 Appogee binos. It does work and is good as a small light weight travel set (since my family won't always let me take my large dob). However there is some shake, which got worse by adding orion's precision fine tuner (but the fine tuner made objects easier to center and eliminated the course overshoot). Needless to say, you get what you pay for.

...faackanders2



Can you tell us about the "Orion precision fine tuner"?

Thanks.

#5 EdZ

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

did you mean the Orion Precision Slow Motion Adapter?
I've had one for over 10 years. I used it for 10x50s and 12x50 and occasionally LW15x70s.
I'd put the load capacity of that at about 4-5# max., preferably 3-4#.

#6 BobinKy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

EdZ...

Thanks for the explanation.


#7 Jarrod

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:15 AM

Wow, $300 for that Garrett tripod. As a newbie it's going to take awhile to wrap my head around the idea that the mount costs as much as the optics. This alone may bring me back to the idea of 20x80s.

Would I be better off with this $225 Orion parallelogram setup? Having never used any of these big tripods with fancy heads it's impossible for me to know, but it *looks* like a pretty hot setup to me:
http://tinyurl.com/cu8m9ao

#8 daniel_h

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:38 AM

7lbs tripod rating isn't enough, the orion p-mount won't carry them very well either

#9 Rich V.

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:48 AM

Mounts can be more expensive than the binoculars in many cases; that has to be budgeted in as well, sadly. :( You can skimp on the mount but it may spoil the enjoyment of using the optics.

Parallelograms allow you to sit while viewing so are the most comfortable mount for straight-through design binos but at a higher cost and loss of portability. Depending on the design, some you sit behind like the Orion and others you sit alongside or use a recliner like the UA Unimount.

The Orion Paragon p-gram is suitable for HD 15x70s or LW 20x80s at 5#, not a 10# 25x100.

Perhaps a higher quality 15x70 like the Orion Resolux/Garrett Signature/Oberwerk Ultra would be more suitable. This size bino goes deep but still has a nice 4°+ FOV. At 5# and relatively compact, they would work well with a lighter tripod (but still suitably tall) or even a tall monopod. They're a lot easier to mount than a big 25x100.

Rich

#10 BobinKy

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:51 AM

Sometimes, the investment in the basic optic can be the smallest investment you make. Then comes the mount, finder, filters, eyepieces, dew shields, and other kit. This hobby is not cheap--but it is very satisfying for those of us who pursue it seriously.

#11 Jarrod

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

Thanks to all for the valuable feedback. I decided that I'm not ready to dump $700 into this hobby all at once. So I rolled the dice one more time with Celestron Skymaster 20x80s. This time new ones. I previously bought a pair from Amazon Warehouse Deals and they were atrocious - I can see why the original owner sent them back. I did, too.

I also placed an order for that Orion Paragon Plus parallelogram mount, the Paragon XHD "extra heavy-duty" tripod, and the proper adapter to attach binos that have built-in tripod mounts like the 20x80mm Skymasters do. I bought them separately so that I'll also have the 2-way fluid pan head in case I decide to get some 25x100s later, and for photography. Orion tech support assured me (yes - in 3 minutes I was speaking with a native who knew these products inside and out) that the XHD tripod with the pan head can handle the Orion Giant 25x100mm binos and is in fact one of the solutions they recommend for that set. I'll need a stool.

If the Skymasters crash and burn, I can keep trying, or set my sights on some (non-Celestron) 15x70s as Rich V. suggested. I should be good for up to 6-7 pounds on this mount. Incidentally, at least one review of this p-mount on the Orion website indicated that by adding more counterweight it worked fine with the 10# 25x100s. The support guy wouldn't go there with me (I asked), as he had not personally tested it.

So, I swallowed hard and spent 3x on the mount and 1x on the optics. :confused:

#12 faackanders2

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

The orion precision fine tunner allowed fine tuning in azmuth and declination. I bought a second one I haven't used yet.
Warning just don't go to limit/stop or you may have issues, stay in the middle range. With my 10 lb 25x100s I had to use alot of force to lock the course declination, which made it hard to undo for the next session; however the camera tripod almost always was easier to do the course declination and azmuth.

For those purists, the precision fine tuner did introduce a minor vertical spring vibration (that did not exist w/o the fine tuner).

#13 faackanders2

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:10 PM

Wow, $300 for that Garrett tripod. As a newbie it's going to take awhile to wrap my head around the idea that the mount costs as much as the optics. This alone may bring me back to the idea of 20x80s.

Would I be better off with this $225 Orion parallelogram setup? Having never used any of these big tripods with fancy heads it's impossible for me to know, but it *looks* like a pretty hot setup to me:
http://tinyurl.com/cu8m9ao


I also did try the orion parallogram with the 25x100 and it did not work too well (too much force required on bearings, etc. It did work fine on my smaller binos up to 63mm diameter. Needless to say I returned it, but kind of regretted I didn't keep it for my smaller binos (but I probably would have damaged it with my 25x100 binos because I would not be able to overcome my temptation to use it).

The UT 6 DOF parallogram is great for a 10 lb 25x100 bino, but costs almost 3x that of the binos themselves, so I have a hard time justifying the cost (and additional weight). My old camera tripod does work (70-80% effient) and is very light weight and relatively small allowing lots of travel (and I have taken it to Mauna Kea, Hawaii with awsome pan views of M31).

#14 faackanders2

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:17 PM

did you mean the Orion Precision Slow Motion Adapter?
I've had one for over 10 years. I used it for 10x50s and 12x50 and occasionally LW15x70s.
I'd put the load capacity of that at about 4-5# max., preferably 3-4#.


Yes
http://www.telescope...33.uts?keywo...

Currently on sale for $34 and well worth it! The fine tuning benefits outweight the slight vertical spring vibration it induces with the 25x100 binos.

Ken

#15 Jarrod

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

Well guys, I chickened out. Orders both cancelled. It just didn't feel right. I need more research...

#16 BobinKy

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

Good decision. :applause:

*****

Maybe you should start out (upgrade to) a quality 10x50, which can be held with the hands, as well as supported with elbows on car roof, table, or chaise lounge armrests.

Keep us informed. :jump: :jump: :jump:

#17 Jarrod

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:18 PM

You know, I really had my heart set on big ones - 25x100s. Now I'm into the Zhumell set. Correct me if I'm wrong but these seem like the best combo for planets, deep sky, and a wide-ish FOV for comets. But the question of mounting them is putting me off....I'm *sure* I'm not the first one in that situation.

Now I'm looking at the Pentax 20x60s with the free tripod+head at B&H. Seems like a lot of setup for the money. But those don't have a very wide FOV. I want to view the comets headed our way...is 2 degrees enough to see the tails?

I already have a set of nice 8x50 Leupold BX-1s. Maybe I should point them at the sky and have a look.

#18 BobinKy

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

I have a pair of Pentax 20x60s. They are nice, but you get dark views of the night sky due to the small exit pupil. However, they give nice views of bright objects such as planets and the Moon. Search this forum--there have been many posts and some test reports. Several of the people who hang out here have a pair of the Pentax 20x60s and post very positive comments. They do need some kind of support primarily because of the increased magnification, which is true of any binocular greater than 10x (and this includes 10x for some people). The steadiness problem is because you are magnifying what you often don't notice with smaller mag binoculars; and, of course, the steadiness problem is due to the extra weight of glass and metal in the larger objectives. Anyway, I often observe with my Pentax 20x60s, obtaining support with my elbows on a car roof, using a monopod, or a light tripod. Of course, the Pentax 20x60s are best when supported by a steady tripod, which goes without saying.

All in all, I would certainly give them a try at their current price. Purchase where you can return them if they do not work out for you.

*****

Oh, I almost forgot to mention it. A week or so ago I was observing a bunch of wild turkeys at 1000 yards during the day. There also was a red tail hawk and several turkey vultures in the scene along a woods at the back of a farmer's field. I did the observing with a variety of optics--binoculars and scopes, which I will not go into at the moment. Except to say, I liked the view of the rack (flock) of wild turkeys with the Pentax 20x60s more than with the Orion 25x100s. Of course, both binoculars were mounted on a stable mount. Still, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Pentax 20x60s--the sun was shining (remember I said the Pentax needs bright objects) and the male turkeys had their tail feathers spread in a colorful fan. At least I thought it was neat at the time.

*****

I cannot really help you with the comet question since I have not gotten into comet chasing at this stage of the hobby. Maybe someday, but for now, not yet. Thus, I cannot really advise you on the FOV° you will need to capture comets. My guess is you will find 2.2° ample for many comets within the range of the Pentax 20x60.

Wait a minute, I just ran a search of comets currently close to earth in the SkyTools 3 database, a research and planning software program I have on my laptop. The largest comet coma diameter (ball, but no tail) is 9.1' (C/2012 K5 (LINEAR) in constellation Eridanus. One of the smaller size comet coma diameter is 26" (167P/CINEOS) in constellation Pegasus. Thus, with a coma size of 0.15° (9.1'), it seems to me if you can see comet C/2012 K5 at all with a Pentax 20x60, then the 2.2 FOV° would sufficiently be enough FOV to capture this elusive comet.

I wish you the best in the quest for your next optic.

#19 Jarrod

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

Regarding comets: These are what finally got me to act on my 10+ year desire to get started - so that I have hope of knowing what I'm doing if/when the opportunity presents:

http://earthsky.org/...e-in-march-2013
http://earthsky.org/...tacular-in-2013

#20 BobinKy

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:21 PM

According to SkyTools 3, on 29 December 2013 the coma diameter of comet C/2012 S1 (ISON) will measure 1/4 degree (15') with a tail that may measure as much as 1 degree. Yes, Ison will be something to see. Still it will be within the FOV of the Pentax 20x60--and quite visible in almost any binocular.

#21 faackanders2

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:29 PM

I believe the supposed/potential "comet of the century" tail is supposed to be a long one. I have a variety of binos to cover the various wide views at different powers, and most likely they will be wide enough to cover the big one. :question:

#22 Jim T

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:15 PM

Jarrod,

If either of these "great comets" sport a long tail (let's say, 30 degrees), you will not see the whole shebang in a bino's field of view. The higher the magnification, generally the smaller the FOV. Sometimes the best tool for the job is your naked eyes (and a very dark sky site).

I thoroughly enjoy chasing comets. From a dark sky site, the 10x50's are hard to beat. I own some 25x100's but have yet to build my planned parallelogram (I have bought the parts, it's just finding the time to build...).

My gracious wife bought me my 10x50's back in 1986 when Halley's comet came thru. With the lousy maps and small FOV I had, I could not find it in suburban light pollution near Pittsburgh in my 4.25" f/10 Edmund reflector. With the binos, it was found easily. Binos will help you observe these comets sooner (and later) when they are not so (hopefully) bright and graced with long tails.

I observed Hyakutake from my suburban home in Houston in 1996. I truly regret not taking the effort to drive an hour out of town to some conservation area to view its' tail in much larger fashion.

That was before the internet. Now you can KNOW if the tail is long before you commit to taking the drive. Plan for it now.

I might also recommend getting familiar with your camera and tripod. See if you can take a few pics now (soon) of Orion or the Big Dipper (etc.). Figure out how to do that, and you'll be a step ahead if either of these comets becomes naked-eye "with tail".

There are some great comet finding maps on the web these days. For starters, I recommend Skyhounds' comet chasing page.






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