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Shaping metal without milling or using lathe???

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#51 ZeroID

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?


The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.

There is a noticeable "thump" every time the weld passes through the guide rollers, even with a new blade. Gradually the thump gets more intense until the blade breaks. I cut both aluminum and mild steel, occasionally stainless. So far I've used only carbon steel blades, maybe I'll try a bi-metal. I've had my broken blades welded at a local shop and the welds don't look real neat so that could be part of the problem, but I've also broken a few brand-new blades from Grainger. I've played around with blade tension and that doesn't seem to help, use a slow feed rate (1 or 2 on the dial) and tightened the spring to lower the vertical force.

I also have one of the little $200 4x6 bandsaws and do almost all of my cutting with it. At least it never breaks blades, although they come loose sometimes!


There should be wee grinder on the blade welder and you should grind the weld flat BEFORE using it. Just needs a touch up either side of the blade to smooth it out so it doesn't jam and break going through the guides.

#52 John Carruthers

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:50 AM

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool


There is nothing you cannot then make. I would advise a short course in using machine tools and good workshop practice if only for the sake of safety.
These machines take no prisoners, especially the bandsaw (as used by butchers for slicing up animals).

Tubal Cain's books and Youtube articles are a good guide to safe work holding, and care of your tools.

Rule #1, NEVER LEAVE A CHUCK KEY IN THE CHUCK.

Rule #2, always turn the wokpiece over by hand to check it clears the machine BEFORE you switch on.

Rule #3, NEVER LEAVE A CHUCK KEY IN THE CHUCK.

Rule #4, Never brush swarf away with your hand, use a brush etc.

Rule #5, USE A FENCE AND A PUSH STICK WHEN POSSIBLE ON THE BANDSAW, KEEP HANDS CLEAR OF THE CUT SIDE OF THE BLADE (OR LOOSE FINGERS).

Please feel free to add your tips.......

#53 Mirzam

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:50 AM

Always wear safety glasses. It's hard to look through a telescope with metal shards in your eyes.

JimC

#54 Dick Jacobson

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:41 AM

In seventh grade, my woodworking teacher said "Never wear a necktie when using a lathe".

#55 JohnH

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

This guy (no pun intended) was a friend of Robin and between the two of them, they could come up with ways to shape metal using common tools most people would just slap their head and say "Why didn't I think of that?"

http://www.lautard.com/

#56 Ratchet

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

Don't forget about table saws. A triple chip carbide blade can cut non ferrous metals pretty precise assuming you have a good saw and fence. They make blades to cut steel, but I have never used them, so cannot comment on those.

#57 Geo.

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

I have a circ saw that is designed to cut steel. $29 on the bargain table at Tractor Supply! It's pretty effective, but goes thru the $15 Harbor Freight specialty blades pretty quickly. The blades are carbide tipped with a special tooth grind. After about half of them are chipped I cut them back with an angle grinder and get some more use from the blade. Freud blades are about $50.

A surgeon told me he sees more bandsaw than any other power tool injuries. It seems the shields go down when the blade is hidden in the work. So just stay scared.

No neckties, loose clothing or gloves, jewelry or long hair.
A friend who doesn't wear his wedding ring anymore after it got caught and tore off his finger. A club member lost a hand after the cuff of a glove got snatched in a chopsaw blade. They put it back on but it's not much use anymore. Classmate of a gal at the observatory's daughter was killed at Yale when her hair was caught in a mill.

I've had a few close calls myself - a Dior necktie sucked into a 911's cooling fan was the most freightening. Still wonder how I got out of that alive. So don't be as my dad liked to say: "too soon old, too late smart."

#58 Pinbout

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:04 PM

how come every thread about tools gets side tracked about the horror stories? I'd rather see a different thread. :foreheadslap:

#59 don clement

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool


I found the book "Tabletop Machining" by Joe Martin very useful not just for table top sized machine tools.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0966543300

After the drill press, a bandsaw was the next machine tool I purchased. BTW bandsaw doesn’t have to be a metal cutting bandsaw to cut aluminum. I used a 14” wood cutting bandsaw for many years to cut aluminum with excellent results. The trick to cutting aluminum was to use the proper blade such as the 4-6tpi Lenox blade and the right blade speed. (My 14” wood cutting bandsaw had 4 pulley speed change)

Don Clement

#60 obin robinson

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

Old used machine tools are like old classic telescopes and antique cars - people want the new stuff so its not hard to find the old stuff in good condition for great prices. People collect classic scopes (or cars) because they like them, but they're still quite functional in the modern era, and since there are so many old ones in great condition still available, it doesn't make sense for someone to build their own or buy new unless that's specifically what they want (at much higher cost)

Tim


I couldn't have said it better myself. Between Craigslist, eBay, local classified ads, estate sales, and garage sales there is no reason to buy a new lathe especially if you are a beginner. In many cases old Sears, Bridgeport, or Rockwell lathes from the 1960s or 1970s can accomplish everything you would need to do.

In many cases these things go up for sale under the condition of "local pick-up only" because of their size and weight. You might be able to score a $5,000 lathe for $500 if you have three strong friends and a pickup truck. Those deals are there and you just have to look for them.

To give you an idea of how good those old machines were I read an article a while back about some custom work done during WWII for the OSS (the agency before the CIA). One of the devices being inspected was apparently machined so perfectly that the inspector said it looked like a modern CNC machine did the cuts with laser precision. This work was done by hand, by eyeball, and with nothing more complex than a slide rule or pencil and paper to do all the calculations. Magnificent work can be done with old lathes. It just takes a careful skilled person to do the work.

obin :)

#61 lukasik

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:17 PM

+1 on this link to Guy Lautard!

I have all three of the Machinist's Bedside Readers. Entertaining if you like to make things, and lots of great ideas.

Regards,

Bob

#62 don clement

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:29 PM


In many cases these things go up for sale under the condition of "local pick-up only" because of their size and weight. You might be able to score a $5,000 lathe for $500 if you have three strong friends and a pickup truck. Those deals are there and you just have to look for them.

Speaking of local pick-up: I have a Rockford 13x30 lathe available for FREE providing that one load it up a haul it away. There is definitely assembly required as it is completely disassembled. I would also include a rotary 220V single-phase to 3-Phase converter I built to run the lathe’s 3Ph 3Hp motor. Also included: 12” T slot faceplate, 8” 3-jaw chuck and 10” 4-jaw independent chuck. PM me.

Don

#63 Howie Glatter

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

> . . there are so many old ones in great condition still available . .

Most of the used machines I have seen at auctions were badly worn. Of course, if the machine was only used by a conscientious worker who kept it oiled, and cleaned abrasive residue from the slide ways,it will be o.k. But if you intend to do high precision work, you should bring a straight edge and dial indicator with you, and check the ways for wear and the spindle for run-out. Usually, if the ways are worn, it will be adjacent to the headstock.
If you know how to do it, all the important alignments should be checked.
On the other hand, a worn lathe can be completely re-conditioned by hand-scraping, a wonderful, almost lost art.

#64 don clement

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

> On the other hand, a worn lathe can be completely re-conditioned by hand-scraping, a wonderful, almost lost art.


Hand scraping certainly falls under this thread title about shaping metal without milling or using lathe.

BTW "Machine Tool Reconditioning and Applications of Hand Scraping" by Edward F. Connelly is an excellent reference.
http://www.amazon.co...raping/dp/B0... I am glad to have a copy before it went out of print. IMO hand scraping is on par with hand figuring a telescope mirror.

Don Clement

#65 Tavi

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

There is my home made small milling machine:

Posted Image

I got the drilling press support and the milling table from a second-hand market, very cheap. The vice and the drilling hand machine was buyed new like the various milling bits you can see near in the little can. I used this to machine a lot of my ATM's part, including thick 12mm Alloy. Also, I use an accu drill, a jigsaw, angular grinder, files etc. For some parts wich a lathe or a mill is needed, I went to a friend's mechanical shop who help me a lot.

For cutting the alloy plate I used a jigsaw atached to a DIY radial tool wich guide it around a center pin:

Posted Image

This is my cassegrain mirror cell after cutting:

Posted Image

And here the cell prepared to assembling phase:

Posted Image

I used the mini-mill to make the disc round, drillpress to make holes, jigsaw to cut and files to finish.

#66 JohnH

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:37 PM

I also forgot Gary Wolanski

http://members.shaw.ca/gargwolanski/

I have had a chance to speak with him, as he his a semi-legendary figure in ATM circles in BC, Canada, and was a frequent entry in optical and construction categories at many star parties.

#67 whirlpoolm51

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

believe me!! between seeing what has happened to my father and many friends i have worked with i am plenty cautious when it comes to working with power tools hahahahah i do electrical work for a living and the owrst i have ever been hurt is when i wasnt paying attention and was in a hurry and i accidently stuck my thmb on the hot lug of a 150 amp panel!!...let me tell you , i had the taste of metal in my mouth for the next 3 days!!

So the moral of this story is.....DONT BE STUPID AND PAY ATTENTION hahahahaha

table saws , lathes , bench grinders , drill presses etc etc no matter what , if you get carless and try to rush you are goign to get hurt , and between the power of a lathe and even a bench grinder , that is enough to remove all 10 fingers from your precious little hands hahaha

So when it comes to saftey im pretty positive i am taking all precations!!!

#68 Geo.

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

I grew up on a farm around machinery (still one of the most dangerous workplaces) and dad never stopped with the dire warnings. OTOH, the wife took an adult ed course entitled "Ladies Night Out With Power Tools," which emphasised respect not fear of tools.

#69 Tavi

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

Of course, we have "power tools" the ladies should never fear... at least after the first night!! :lol:

#70 ccaissie

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

Check this source out.
http://gingerybooks.com/
He's not afraid to use anything to make anything.

#71 Geo.

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:01 PM

lets not forget ole Mr safety


And Off. Just read that in the history of human death half were by mosquitos.

#72 tim53

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

That does it, I'm NEVER going to use mosquitos to make telescope components! :grin:

-Tim.

#73 don clement

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

Do you ATMs think grinding mirrors is safer than shaping metal with machine tools? Bob Cox died from just that.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Robert_E._Cox

Don Clement

#74 Gordon Rayner

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:09 PM

As I recall, Robert Cox was breathing fine glass particles thrown into the air with fine coolant spray from a lens curve generator, or a Blanchard grinder used to make flat glass surfaces.I visited an Orange County, Calif shop in the 1970's. Some presumably low wage, possibly undocumented workers were in a room with some, but inadequate, ventilation or filtering. I believe that this was before OSHA, or about at its beginning. The Blanchards or Strasbaughs were in action, flattening glass. An odor of kerosene and a thin fog of it(?), and probably some additives or water (?) made me want to leave.

I have wondered about the fate of those workers, in light of the fate of Robert Cox. Remember when he called his identical twin to the stage at RTMC? " Yes, nature can make the same mistake twice", he said.


I wonder if his estate sued McDonnel Douglas , Inc. ?

#75 Geo.

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

I wonder if his estate sued McDonnel Douglas , Inc. ?


Pretty sure all states have had worker's compensation laws for the last century. Comp greatly restricts an employee's legal redress in the event of injury or death related to employment. You have to find someone who's not the employer who has a duty of care, like the asbestos producers who failed to disclose to manufacturers of the hazardous nature of their product. Exceptions are that employers in construction can be sued if they fail to comply with OSHA requirements and an injury or death results, seamen employed on US flag vessels and railroad workers right are covered by federal law, which permit suits.






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