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The moon in 3D, a true celestial orb!

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#1 Eddgie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:30 PM

After a long day of changing the front springs in my Jaguar, a difficult and dangerous job, I simple did not have the energy to take out my C14.

The C5 was on the Patio though, and since getting the binoviewers, I have been using it more than ever, so tonight, I thought I would look at the moon.

I started with a pair of 20mm Plossls, but the view was only OK. I pushed up to a 15mm pair, and it was still only OK. I guess I am spoiled by the C14.

But just on a whim, before putting the scope away, I slipped in the 40mm Plossl.

Pow! OMG! I could not believe how astonishing the moon looked! After appearing somewhat dim using the 20mm and 15mm Plossls, the moon just about leaped out of the background because it was so brilliantly illuminated!. It filled about half of the eyepiece, but the level of detail even at this low power (maybe 40x) was staggering. The binoveiwer 3D effect was overpowering but more than just getting an impression that there was actual relief in the details, for the first time ever, the moon gave an absolutely overpowering impression of being a Sphere! It didn't look like a disk at all, but a true 3D sphere. I could have sworn I was looking at a ball that was being lit from a source off to the side. The surface appeared to curve away from me all around the edge. The illusion was so powerful that I could not hardly believe it. It truely looked like I was looking at a ball!

Maybe it was the phase or something, but I have never seen this effect before. The sensation was overpowering.

I spend most of my time observing the moon at high powers and it has been a very long time since I viewed the moon all in one view like this because normally it just didn't seem that interesting.

In the binoviewers though, this effect combined with the perception of texture on the surface was uncanny. It as simply one of the most surprising views I have had of the moon ever!

Once again, I am finding the 40mm Plossls to be a big surprise. The view with them is super razor sharp and the low power does a great deal to flatten the field of the SCTs I am using them in, but the brightness of the moon really stunned me. Again, the low power of the 40s greatly reduced the field curvature of the C5, so the entire moon was in perfect focus all at once when it was centered in the field, and the crispness of the view was utterly fantastic!

I am beginning to love low power observing! Everything just seems so beautifully crisp!

Clouds spoiled it. But one of the most memorable views of the moon I have ever had. Simply breathtaking.

#2 ewave

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:18 AM

That's a nice story to hear and glad you got to witness such a view. On a different subject, sometimes I wonder if the eyes/brain triggers optical illusions as well? At times while observing the moon, I noticed the beautiful craters with splendid detail somehow turn into bubble like features ( no kiddin :p). When this occurs, I need to break away from the eyepiece for a few minutes and it becomes resolved once again. I always wondered the reason for this though? Happy bino viewing Eddgie. I just got word that my Baader Maxbrights will be arriving shortly after a long wait. Now to choose a pair of EPs to boot. So far the new 18mm Baader ortho classics and the TV 25mm Plossls are in contention. Enjoy!

#3 Eddgie

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:30 AM

Yes, I have experienced this inversion effect often.

Not as much with two eyes. Like you, I have to break the view. A very powerful illusion.

#4 REC

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:21 AM

Ok, now you have me curious! I have a pair of 20mm that came with my WO bino and that's all I ever use. This low power observation of yours gets me thinking if I should pair up my Meade 32mm SP and try them....think they would work ok and not vignette?

Thanks,

Bob

#5 howard929

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:54 AM

Ouch Guy. $300 for a pair of Plossls seems on the dear side. Would you imagine that some other brand "might" do?

#6 Eddgie

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:09 AM

Yes, you will get vignetting, but it will be minor I think if you go to a 40mm or 32mm pair.

These eyepeices have field stops that are very close to the bottom of the eyepeice barrel. As a result, the aperture of the binoviewer is so close to the bottome of the eyepeice barrel that it will almost be in focus. It will look like a "Soft" field stop.

Of course the apparent field will be narrow, but the moon should easily fit a 40x or so.

Try a single low power eyepice in your binoviewer to see how it behaves.

I have to say, the view was amazingly good to me, and if you already have one inexpensive 32mm or 40mm plossl, if the one eyepeice experiemnet shows that the vignetting is not horrible, adding a second one should not be a big deal.

I encourage you to try it though. The view of the moon was fantastic at low power. Far better than I could have imagined. Brilliant and super-sharp. I think the extra-bright image gives you a sense of "Hyper-contrast." The bright details are so much brighter than the black details that it really changes the view! You still see huge variations in shading, but they are all so much more vivid and because you see the entire surface, you see how hugely varied the shading of the surface really is. Better than any picture I have ever seen because pictures don't have any dynamic range.

Stronly encourage you to experiment with one low power eyepeice for vignetting. Even if it vignettes a little, I still think it is worth a try.

#7 Eddgie

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:17 AM

Well, think about it this way..

First, I actually found a pair of TV 40s for sale and paid well under $200.

Next, I could have bought a pair of cheap 40mm Plossls, but this was an expeirment, and if it did not work out, I knew that I could sell the TVs pretty much for what I paid for them.

Would a less expensive set of 40s work now that I feel that the experiement was justified? Maybe, but I know the TVs give perfect performance, and the difference in what I could sell the TVs for just to replace them with some inexpensive 40s does not seem all that justified to me.

After the experiment with the 40s though, I am also going to try a set of 32mm Plossls.

For this, I had trouble finding a pair of less expensive Plossls on the used market, so I found a pair of new (non-televue) for not much more.

If they work as well, I may abandon the 24mm Hyperions in favor of the 32mm. The Hyperions just give far to much power at the expense of image brigness due to binoviewer/exit pupil.

I found the AFOV of the 40s to be less of an issue than I thought they would be, but it would still be nicer to have a bit wider apparent field.

But the 40mm TVs in the C14 have proven to give razor sharp performace across the field. The effects of the scopes field curvature are almost completely eliminated so while the AFOV is narrower, stars across the field are brilliant fine pinpoings.

So, happy with the TV 40s and paid will under $200. Even if the 32s work out, I may keep the TVs because the sun and moon were so dazzling in the C5 using these eyepeices that they are worth keeping just for those targets.

#8 REC

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:52 PM

Thanks Eddgie, I will try the 32mm in one eye of the BV and see how it does. I was using the 32 SP other night for the Moon-Jupiter pairing and did notice the field stop was not sharp and it was a little fuzzy around the edges.

Bob

#9 bcuddihee

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

Eddgie, I use a pair of 32 Brandons in my Denk standard and there is a bit of vignetting, but I can overlook this as the moon is absolutely fabulous and stars are truly pinpoint. My fov is fairly generous with this combo and I can just fit the most dense areas of the double cluster in the same fov.
bc

#10 howard929

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:00 PM

Eddgie,

Thank you for that complete answer. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Howard

#11 David E

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

Eddgie, I use a pair of 32 Brandons in my Denk standard and there is a bit of vignetting, but I can overlook this as the moon is absolutely fabulous and stars are truly pinpoint. My fov is fairly generous with this combo and I can just fit the most dense areas of the double cluster in the same fov.
bc


If you think about it, the slight vignetting covers up the edge of field aberrations in the eyepieces. To me that makes the overall view more enjoyable.

#12 David E

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

Yes, I have experienced this inversion effect often.

Not as much with two eyes. Like you, I have to break the view. A very powerful illusion.


I've seen what I think is the same thing, a sort of "reverse 3-d effect." To me it happens more in the southern hemisphere of the Moon where there are ample craters. I love it when the air is super-steady and I can run the power up over 150x. I don't track with the mount, just let the moon drift by underneath, like I'm in orbit.

#13 johnnyha

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

I could have sworn I was looking at a ball that was being lit from a source off to the side.


You were.

:grin:

I also tend to view the Moon at the highest magnification I can get away with. I'm going to break out the 32mm Brandons on the Moon next chance I get and give it a try. It does burn your retinas out for awhile... :lol:

#14 Ira

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

This "sphere" effect is what I call "presence", the sensation of looking at the thing itself hanging in space, not an image in an eyepiece. I find it especially striking with Jupiter. I deemed it the result of subtle shadings at the limb that que a 3d spatial object and are just not seen with the single eye. In any case, the effect is remarkable, as you have described, and is one of the addictions of bino viewing.

/Ira

#15 pftarch

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

Since your going on an "alternative" eyepiece journey, have you tried a pair of 28 RKE's? If you can get a pair, try them with and without the rubber boots. They are an aquired taste for sure, but I love them and you might too.

#16 killdabuddha

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:01 PM

Since your going on an "alternative" eyepiece journey, have you tried a pair of 28 RKE's? If you can get a pair, try them with and without the rubber boots. They are an aquired taste for sure, but I love them and you might too.


D'oh! Stole my thunder. Yeah, we managed to get the last pair at $62, before they jumped to $85(?), and just imagine the WOW! doubled, 1st b/c of the BV advantage, and 2d b/c of the 28mm RKE effect. Sure, we can put 600x on any feature and in bino-vision usin more expensive EPs, but with the RKEs Luna becomes a beach ball. These EPs are noted for a) the "floaty" effect, and b) makin the scope disappear. But they also render the moon/planets more spherical than circular, even with one eye, and this is also the effect of BV-ing. Advantage doubled...or would it be squared? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

#17 REC

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

Wow, you sure have a lot of nice pairs there! Are you mainly using your C8 for these?

Bob

#18 Jeff B

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

Actually, you can get that same 3D ball effect on Jupiter too. I swear I can look around it if I moved my head over. Jupiters moons can also seem to have a strong front-to-back perspective as well, especially when they are close together.

Try the 40MMs on the moon with Buffy and then move buffy over to Jupiter (but around 75-100X). :grin:

Jeff

#19 rflinn68

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

Best view by far I've ever seen of the Moon was the other night with my 10" Meade SCT and my William Optics BV's. I'm really starting to like this binoviewing thing! :jump:






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