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#1 Saclablue

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:30 AM

Hi there everyone, looking for a little feed back as to what i should do. I have an oportunity right now to pick up an SBIG ST-8300 for 2000, or should i buy a nice DSLR camera. So many toys, so little time.

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#2 terry59

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:41 AM

OSC or mono? What do you want to image?

#3 Mike7Mak

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:42 AM

The newer, better STF-8300 is on sale now for less than $2k brand new. A little info on what you plan to do with it would be helpful.

#4 Saclablue

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

Deep sky, galaxies, planetary nebula's and some bright emission nebulas of course. But mostly DSO's

#5 Footbag

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:57 AM

What do you get for $2k? Seems expensive unless it comes with other items.

#6 guyroch

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

Deep sky, galaxies, planetary nebula's and some bright emission nebulas of course. But mostly DSO's


Welcome to CloudyNights!

Both DSLR and CCD will do just fine on DSOs.

BUT... if you are planning to go the mono CCD route you need to consider filters as well.

A DSLR will give you a wider field of view but a mono CCD will give you way more detail. The jury is still out on the DSLR vs. OSC (color CCD).

Timmins, Ontario... eh... go figure... I'm originally from Kap :)

Guylain

#7 Saclablue

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:56 AM

Yes, i understande i will need LRGB filters, as i already have 2" Lumicon O-III, HA, UHC, and an Orion H-Beta. All i need now is the SII. I am certainly not new to astronomy, just looking for an opinion on wheither to get the SBIG STF-8300m while its on sale or invest on a nice DSLR, say like a Canon 60Da or something for imaging DSO's

Kap eh!!! lol, were are you now?

#8 Footbag

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:15 PM

A modded T2i, T3i or T4i would outperform the 60Da for half the price (or 1/4 used). Don't assume you have to spend that much on an DSLR for astro. I've started with DSLR's. They are very capable cameras and don't have a huge learning curve. The software to run them is cheap, but capable. But, being a color camera, they are limited in their sensitivity.

Now the learning curve on the STF-8300m will be much larger. I'd be reluctant to suggest buying it without an integrated filter wheel, guider, etc... So To get the most out of the STF, you would be at around $4k. With narrowband filters, it will allow you to get more out of light polluted skies.

The SBIG is a better camera, Whether it's $3500 much better is up to you.

#9 guyroch

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

Yes, i understande i will need LRGB filters, as i already have 2" Lumicon O-III, HA, UHC, and an Orion H-Beta. All i need now is the SII. I am certainly not new to astronomy, just looking for an opinion on wheither to get the SBIG STF-8300m while its on sale or invest on a nice DSLR, say like a Canon 60Da or something for imaging DSO's

Kap eh!!! lol, were are you now?


I've been in Ottawa since '87 :) Actually I'm from Val-Rita but I always say Kap :)

Well... if you're looking at image quality the STF-8300m will provide that for sure, well beyond what any DSLR will offer. Not to say that a DSLR can not produce quality images, they sure can and they've been tried, tested, and true. But it's hard to have a DSLR come out a winner when compared against a mono CCD.

If you want the best of both world and $ is not an object, I would get the STF-8300m while it's on sale and buy a used T2i and have it modified. Just my 2 cents.

Guylain

#10 CounterWeight

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:35 PM

I love my mono 8300 and it's the original flavor. I'm one that favors the mono approach if possible. One thing I want to mention, is that if you are getting mono you MUST use 'imaging filters' and not those equivelent you use for visual. All filters are not created equal.

In my case I have terrible light pollution and good filters make all the difference. (talk about expen$e!, look at the astrodon 3nm narrowband filter co$t) There is still a lot I cannot do, but what I can do I am happy with, most of the time.

Hope that helps.

#11 Saclablue

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:21 PM

Light pollution is no object up here in northern canada. i am in a perfect dark sky area. The milky way is easily and eye fillingly visible on any given clear night, even right in town it is visible. Now i have a T3i canaon, but i can not get it to take more than a 30 second exposure or so. on ISO 100. What is this modification to the camera every one keeps talking about? I have a t-ring adapter and a prime focus and eyepeice adapter for it but had only poopy results with it at best, nothing clear or nice like everyone elses DSLR pictures i see. Thus the reason i have have given up on this particular Camera. Wife loves it for taking pictures of flowers and stuff though.

#12 guyroch

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:12 PM

Even in excellent dark skies a light pollution filter will always help. I always use one, regardless of where I'm at.

Take a look this site for information about modifying your DSLR.
http://ghonis2.ho8.c...lmod450d17.html

If you plan to continue using your DLSR, have it modified, don't even consider not to. You'll love it and you'll never look back :)

Guylain

#13 TimN

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

A 30 second exposure on iso 100 won't give you much detail. The guy from Kap has a program that should help with your DSLR - surprised he didn't mention it :).

By the way, I'm from south of you guys - North Bay.

#14 Saclablue

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:54 PM

Nice, I asume your with Norht bay astronomy club? I was Talking with Mr. Rosco a few days ago. I aswell as a few others are starting an astronomy club here in Timmins. But as far as iexposures with our DSLR all attempts have been futile. A 30 second exposure at ISO 100 still renders the best image it can produce, must be the user. lol

#15 Footbag

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:00 PM

You should be at iso 400 at least. I'm not sure what the unity gain for your camera is, but its likely 400-800. Then buy Backyard EOS and use it to take lots and lots of exposures.

Then use Deep Sky Stacker to stack your exposures.

Your equimpment is more then capable, you just need to learn and practice.

#16 TimN

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:04 PM

No, I was a member about 50 years ago. I moved from North Bay after High School and now that I'm retired I moved back to the area. I'm currently about 20 kms west of South River, in the middle of nowhere, kinda snowed in and hoping for some clear skies. Looks like its Cloudy Nights for my astronomy fix for the next while.

#17 Saclablue

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:37 PM

So, back to the topic, lol Should i grab that STF-8300m while its on sale or look to invest in a good DSLR and have it modified?

#18 terry59

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:04 PM

A DSLR is much less expensive and easier to learn with. The CCD camera requires 36mm filters (LRGB and/or Ha, SII, OII) plus the filter wheel.

Edit: The CCD camera you are looking at requires the 36mm filters...not all CCD cameras

#19 TimN

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:54 PM

I agree with Adam. You should be able to do much better with your DSLR, especially if you use at LEAST ISO 400, capture with BackyardEOS then stack with DSS. After you get that mastered, you can decide your upgrade path. As Terry says, the DSLR is easier to start with and you already have it.

#20 guyroch

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

I agree with Adam. You should be able to do much better with your DSLR, especially if you use at LEAST ISO 400, capture with BackyardEOS then stack with DSS. After you get that mastered, you can decide your upgrade path. As Terry says, the DSLR is easier to start with and you already have it.


I agree too, buy BackyardEOS so I can buy a case of beer for the weekend :roflmao:

Guylain

#21 Mike7Mak

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:50 PM

How exactly is a DSLR 'easier to learn' than a CCD?

They are virtually the same thing except cooled CCD astrocams are actually designed for the job. DSLRs are handicapped from the git-go by lower bit depth, daylight oriented in-camera processing, non-standard file formats, larger mechanical backfocus, hard to control thermal issues, and limited spectral range.

IMO, it's a bit like playing golf with a croquet mallet. :)

#22 korborh

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

A CCD is much easier than DSLR. Images from CCD are also easier to process. Only thing going for DSLR is that it is a cheap way to get the feet wet before eventually succumbing to CCD.

#23 terry59

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:49 PM

A CCD is much easier than DSLR. Images from CCD are also easier to process. Only thing going for DSLR is that it is a cheap way to get the feet wet before eventually succumbing to CCD.


Wow...we all have our own opinions and mine is that a DSLR is *easier* but not *better*...yours may be different.

#24 CounterWeight

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

I think it's important to keep capability seperate from price. Capability is something technical. Price is market stuff. Absolutely they are interconnected as are all things 'for sale'. I'm just sayin' ... if you look at what you would get cost aside, and that changes because of cost - then you're in the tradeoff game.

I don't see easier or more difficult 'CCD/Camera' side of things. IMHO all the really hard work and where most often problems stem from is the mount, alignment, and tracking / guiding. The camera just records what the rest is doing.

IMO processing is not really difficult if you are getting great sub exposures. But the CCD / Camera thing is all about noise, signal, and resolution. Resolution decreases with noise (here I'm referring to temperature related and the chips supporting electronics) and Bayer matrix for color or 'OSC' in some respects. But where and how exactly that matters? Now you're talking about resolution and optics and sub exposure length and tracking and what makes sense.

In most respects mono CCD will always trump the other flavors, and really it's no different to get get a sub with it than any other... you focus and click the mouse.

So I think more often this 'difficulty' and 'getting feet wet' is more accurately with respect to co$t to get in where mono at the high end pricewise.

May seem like splitting hairs in ways, but I don't see it so. Capability and then cost for capability are IMO two different things. One is entirely technical and the other is about disposable income.

That said I think if you understand the technical side then your expectations will be more realistic. But having a good 'system' to learn imaging on is maybe more important, and understanding what will contribute or detract on quality of final product. I think mounts, PA and alignment, sometimes dialing in guiding, focusers, optics are more 'difficult' than critical focus and click that button for capture.

No real 'what you see is what you get' here, more like what you don't see is what you get, and there are ways to optimize that.

As I've said before, in ways what can be most expensive in buying and selling many times over due to unrealistic expectations or misunderstanding.

Not trying to muddy the waters here, hope what I'm getting at makes sense.

#25 Jeff2011

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:52 AM

IMO, it's a bit like playing golf with a croquet mallet.



I think the mallet might improve my golf game :grin:

I went with the DSLR since I am also interested in wide angle shots of the sky. I do not disagree that the CCD is more suitable for telescope AP. it is just a matter of preference. To me the DSLR is more versatile.






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