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Double Header - 5 runs, Jupiter and Saturn Mar 3rd

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#1 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

Things are coming along well, getting this carbon fiber C11 dialed in. Last night was beautiful 50 degrees. And, seeing was a little better than average, although spent some time dodging some high thin clouds.

I have Jupiter in IR that looks fairly decent. Can't say that much for the RGB. And, to go with it, Saturn in IR, RGB, IR-RGB.

I'm puzzled again with gettting the right barlow and image magnification. With the C14, I couldn't use 2x Big Barlow or the 2.5x Powermate. Too big, oversampled. With Saturn, these barlows don't make it large enough on the chip. You can see from the uncropped Saturn images my scale. Jupiter images were resized to 110%, and cropped.

Not sure what I will do for increasing the magnification. But, I'll figure it out. Thanks for looking.

Paul

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#2 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:20 AM

Jupiter RGB

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#3 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

Saturn IR

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#4 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

Saturn IR-RGB

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#5 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

Saturn RGB

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#6 yock1960

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:04 AM

Are these with the DMK21?

If you picked up an ASI120, you would gain over 100 pixels on Jupiter! :grin:

Didn't calculate it for Saturn.

Going 3.7x would get you the same thing as buying the ASI. Assuming I figured everything correctly...

Steve

#7 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:30 AM

Yes, it was the DMK21, Steve. The larger pixel size is a drag. But, it is more sensitive than my DMK31. No ASI...

I want to see who else jumps in the CMOS wagon for the ride. I'm not sure I'm going to get a 3x barlow. Still thinkin' :question:

#8 Rankinstudio

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:31 AM

Nice set of images there Tox!

#9 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:05 AM

Thanks, David.

For anyone who has 2 cents...
When I tested my setup the other night, my image scale was smaller than the images you see above. I had things in this order - 2" visual back takes 2" nose piece, filter wheel, adapter to hold nose of 2.5x Powermate (eye piece collar removed,) then Powermate adapter to camera. As far as getting the image scale up, I have about 100mm of extension tube. I don't want to "stack" barlows. But, where do I add the tube? I was thinking of putting 100mm extension between filter wheel and Powermate. And, to my best knowledge, it should not go between the Powermate and the camera. It may not do anything, as I've tried this elsewhere.

And, I should mention, I shot the above images with a different setup. I took away the Powermate and adapters and use the following - 2" visual back takes 2" Big Barlow (2x) takes 2" nose piece, filter wheel, adapter, camera. And, the image scale IS larger with this set up. I could get a 2" barlow that is 3x and substitute it for the Big Barlow. But, I have to figure out how much that will get me.

Thanks,

Paul

#10 RedLionNJ

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:21 AM

Hi Paul,

I've been there with the "how the heck do I get a decent image scale on my chips, when I have a whole line of tubes hanging off the rear cell of my SCT?".

Trial and error was my path to a solution, I'm afraid. Things were much easier without the filter wheel before the Powermate. In fact, I would go as far as to say to minimize ANYTHING between the rear cell and the imaging chip. My JMI Crayford was also causing the native f10 to be more like f12.5 and then when I added a filter wheel, we're increasing the focal length again (because we're moving the focal plane further back), etc.

Unfortunately, I couldn't do without the Crayford, but I could do without the filter wheel for some of my cameras. It really did come down to trial and error and trying to minimize the focal plane distance from my rear cell. I even bought a couple color cams so I could eliminate the filter wheel distance (with other downsides, obviously).

And I just have to say - great images (better than mine lately, for sure) and a SPECTACULAR IR-RGB of Saturn.

Best Wishes,

Grant

#11 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

Thanks, Grant. It was definitely trial and error with the C14, and even before I parted with it, I still had not found the best scale to use for the scope and camera. But, I was close. I'll keep playin' around with it.

Paul

#12 mitovka

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:03 PM

That Saturn is really nice Paul.

#13 Timthelder

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

Saturn's looking really good there Paul! Should get some real rippers after a few more runs as Saturn nears OP.

Tim

#14 Kokatha man

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:04 PM

Those images look very promising for your first outing with the new scope Paul - congratulations! :waytogo: :waytogo:

I'm too tired to absorb your imaging train setup and possible suggestions but will throw my 2 cents worth in later :shocked:.....collected around 200Gb of Saturn data in the last 3 hours and am about to hit the sack at 6:30 am local time! :)

#15 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

Thanks, Michal and Tim.

I'm about to hit the wall, too, Darryl. Glad you are still collecting data...we just got another front of a couple days cloudy weather moving through. Thanks for considering my issue with image scale. No worries; no hurries...hope you get some rest.I collected data the night before. But, it was mostly mush. I'm looking at those handy calculators (on-line formulas) for figuring out scale, etc. So, I got a lot of things to play around with.

Paul

#16 lcd1080

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

Paul I'm using a TV Powermate 2.5x with my C11 for Saturn; the seeing hasn't been good enough to go with a 3x barlow. Also I'm not sure that Saturn is bright enough this far away from OP to use a 3x even if seeing were better. In about a month I believe a 3x might be a better choice especially in above average seeing.

Pete

#17 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:56 PM

Thanks, Pete. At least I have time to prepare. :lol:

#18 Kokatha man

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:34 PM

Thanks, David.

For anyone who has 2 cents...
When I tested my setup the other night, my image scale was smaller than the images you see above. I had things in this order - 2" visual back takes 2" nose piece, filter wheel, adapter to hold nose of 2.5x Powermate (eye piece collar removed,) then Powermate adapter to camera. As far as getting the image scale up, I have about 100mm of extension tube. I don't want to "stack" barlows. But, where do I add the tube? I was thinking of putting 100mm extension between filter wheel and Powermate. And, to my best knowledge, it should not go between the Powermate and the camera. It may not do anything, as I've tried this elsewhere.

And, I should mention, I shot the above images with a different setup. I took away the Powermate and adapters and use the following - 2" visual back takes 2" Big Barlow (2x) takes 2" nose piece, filter wheel, adapter, camera. And, the image scale IS larger with this set up. I could get a 2" barlow that is 3x and substitute it for the Big Barlow. But, I have to figure out how much that will get me.

Thanks,

Paul


Thinking about this after a bit of rest your image scale would've been larger because in that setup, after a "normal" 2" Big Barlow you had the aforementioned 2" nose piece, filter wheel, adapter, camera.....this would've meant quite a distance from barlow to camera, effectively creating a decent-sized extension tube for image scale increase Paul!

.....In these circumstances a ruler or calipers will easily work out the distance from the back of the Powermate to the camera accurately enough to use the TeleVue tables http://www.televue.c...d=52&Tab=_photo

BUT in the manner you had it later (as per your first paragraph in the quote above) you had the 2.5X Powermate adapter then camera and those particular Powermate units lose image scale as the distance back from them increases!!! http://www.televue.c...?id=53&Tab=_app

.....that's about it - this is a handy site for associated information also http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm

#19 GreatGigInTheSky

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:02 PM

Hi Paul,
Was going to mention that the 2.5x Powermate decreases image scale with further extension but Darryl beat me to it. I've been using the Televue 3x barlow with what I think is decent success on both Jupiter and Saturn with the DBK color cam and my C11. I've still yet to acquire a filter wheel, so I'm not certain with mono and the extra extension the filter wheel might cause, but it seems like a reasonable bet. If you do end up going the ASI cam route, a 2x barlow gives about the same image scale with that as a 3x with the TIS cams.

#20 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:17 PM

I'm considering that very barlow, Jeff. Thanks.

Thanks, Darryl. I've looked at those graphs in the past. I had to put pencil to paper and really look where the lenses were positioned for the entire length of the image train.

To maximize the 2.5x PM, I have 35mm between chip and TOP surface, BUT the bottom surface of the PM has 90mm between it and the rear cell opening...all filled with optical back, filter wheel and adapters, making the total distance from rear cell opening to chip 170mm. That 90mm distance is the problem, and needs to be shorter?

On the other hand, inserting the Big Barlow into the optical back, I start with the barlow lens 7mm from the rear cell opening. But, between there I have 150mm to go from its top surface to the chip, filled by the barlow neck, adapters and the filter wheel. But, this barlow will magnify images as this distance increases and I have already in effect turned it into a 3x barlow?

So, if I'm looking at this correctly, unless I shorten both front and back distances of the PM barlow, all I can do is add some distance with extension tubes and the Big Barlow configuration and start shopping for another barlow of the 3x kind.

Thanks, guys. I think it is starting to make sense. :bow:

Paul

#21 Az Frank

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 09:30 PM

Looks like your getting the handle on it Paul,with some good seeing to help I think you'll have some winners for sure!

#22 ToxMan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:08 PM

Thanks, Frank. How are you configuring your Powermate barlow in the order of your setup? You can send me a PM. :)

#23 Az Frank

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:10 PM

Paul,I go the powermate first then the filter wheel camera configuration. Adapters are used to screw both the powermate and the camera directly to the filter wheel. Makes for a stronger more rigid setup.

#24 ToxMan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:09 AM

Thanks, Frank. I just re-configured accordingly and will give it try. Let you know how it works out.






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