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HorseHead & Flame Nebulae Real-time Video thru IIE

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#1 jdbastro

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:07 AM

This is my 1st, moderately successful attempt at capturing real-time video of the HorseHead and Flame Nebulae using a Gen3 image intensifier and narrow band H-alpha filter thru my Sky90 scope operating at f4.5. With my Panasonic GH3 camera, I set the shutter speed to 1/15th sec and ISO to 3200 within manual movie mode. Please pardon the ever present wind noise (for this time of year).

HorseHead & Flame Nebulae Real-time video link

Please use this still for reference (4 sec exposure):

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#2 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:27 AM

Now you are just showing off..... and I like it.

That looks great. Try the in camera crop mode(ETC) to get rid of the vignetting and coma.

HDR mode will work also.

#3 jdbastro

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:16 AM

Now you are just showing off..... and I like it.

That looks great. Try the in camera crop mode(ETC) to get rid of the vignetting and coma.

HDR mode will work also.


Thanks for the kudos.

OK, I just figured out how to use the Extended Teleconverter (ETC) while in manual movie mode. I see that it is not supported in all video encoding formats but I can live with 1080/30p AVCHD while using ETC.

I'll give it a try next time. Would like to use it on small bright planetaries to kick up the magnification without increasing it optically (and thereby slowing down my telescope focal ratio).

#4 nytecam

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:03 AM

Impressive - the Gen3 EOD trumps any CCD/Mallincam for speed and sensitivity :bow:

#5 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:36 AM

Now you are just showing off..... and I like it.

That looks great. Try the in camera crop mode(ETC) to get rid of the vignetting and coma.

HDR mode will work also.


Thanks for the kudos.

OK, I just figured out how to use the Extended Teleconverter (ETC) while in manual movie mode. I see that it is not supported in all video encoding formats but I can live with 1080/30p AVCHD while using ETC.

I'll give it a try next time. Would like to use it on small bright planetaries to kick up the magnification without increasing it optically (and thereby slowing down my telescope focal ratio).


Switch to 1080p @ 30 FPS .MOV mode instead of AVC-HD. It is the movie mode labeled MOV/FHD 30p on the bottom row of the quick menu screen. That will offer you the best compression for noise that is constantly changing. Make sure you use the MOV/FHD 30p mode that doesn't have the little "I" next to the .MOV. That is the all-I compression scheme that is not good for noise that is always changing. ETC will also work in the 1080p @ 30 FPS mode.

Go for some crazy dark stuff. See if you can get the Hickson 50 in a few seconds. We saw it very well on NSN with a Mallincam on Friday night. However, it took 9 minutes to see it with a slower scope.

Also try the black and white mode. I am curious to see what it looks like without the green tint.

Keep posting though. You are definitely pushing the limits of what I thought was possible and that is really cool.

#6 Chris A

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:43 AM

Very nice and interesting to see the HH & Flame live. I liked that you showed the scope moving around.

Travis it took you 9 min to see Hickson 50 with a Mallincam wow! Something you are doing is obviously not correct and maybe some camera setting adjustments need to be corrected. What focal ratio were you using? I was able to see this group of faint galaxies in 90 sec using my C9.25 at f5.8 and even that was slow compared to other Mallincam users.

http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

Good to see you on NSN!

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#7 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:59 AM

Very nice and interesting to see the HH & Flame live. I liked that you showed the scope moving around.

Travis it took you 9 min to see Hickson 50 with a Mallincam wow! Something you are doing is obviously not correct and maybe some camera setting adjustments need to be corrected. What focal ratio were you using? I was able to see this group of faint galaxies in 90 sec using my C9.25 at f5.8 and even that was slow compared to other Mallincam users.

http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

Good to see you on NSN!

Chris A
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It wasn't me that was broadcasting on NSN. I believe the user was Jim in South West Indiana? He didn't seem to be doing anything wrong. He knew his setup well and was using some filters in Virtualdub that seemed to be working well to reduce the skyglow.

We could tell where the hickson 50 was in about 5 minutes. However, it really took the full 9 minutes to see it.

Others claim to have seen the Hickson 50 in mere seconds so perhaps what you are doing is not correct either?

I think that in reality sky conditions and not just light pollution have a lot to do with it. Light Pollution is hard to deal with. However, clouds and humidity are even worse.

Quite simply I think that the conditions matter more than the sensitivity of the camera. Even though one person may be able to see something in near perfect conditions with a lot of light pollution another person might not be able to see it if their conditions are less than perfect.

The only way to truly compare it is to use try the devices on the exact same night and under the exact same conditions with the exact same equipment. All other conclusions are simply speculation.

#8 StarStuff1

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:43 AM

Very nice HH and Flame! Pretty much similar to what I can see live with my 8-in f/4 and 3rd gen IIE.

#9 nytecam

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

We could tell where the hickson 50 was in about 5 minutes. However, it really took the full 9 minutes to see it. Others claim to have seen the Hickson 50 in mere seconds so perhaps what you are doing is not correct either? I think that in reality sky conditions and not just light pollution have a lot to do with it. Light Pollution is hard to deal with. However, clouds and humidity are even worse. Quite simply I think that the conditions matter more than the sensitivity of the camera. Even though one person may be able to see something in near perfect conditions with a lot of light pollution another person might not be able to see it if their conditions are less than perfect. ...Travis

Travis - transparency and altitude in sky conspire with each other :p My Hickson 50 from Feb 16 in Lodestar 60sec exp below - try eyeballing these tiny galaxies :o

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#10 mclewis1

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:34 PM

Travis,

There are a whole bunch of variables that determine whether or not you'll be able to pick out the members of the Hickson 50.

Sky conditions - darkness, transparency (amount of water vapour and other particulates), and light pollution levels
f ratio
Image scale (these suckers are small and more focal length/image scale really helps)
Filters
Exposure length
Amount of noise
Tracking accuracy (as with any small objects the accuracy of your tracking really makes a difference)
Amount of inline or post processing (re. Nytecam's image)

With my C11 working at f4, using a DeepSky filter under mag 5+ skies I can pick out the area of the Hickson 50 in 30-45s but I need a minute or more to clearly discern the individual galaxies.

IMHO your comments about the problems with comparisons is right on.

#11 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

It was really cool when we saw the Hickson 50 on Firday night. I forget exactly what the scope was but it was guided and not that fast but everyone on there at that time could clearly see all 5 objects.

I have tried to do it with my camera. However, I have yet to actually see them. However, I have not had good sky conditions here for a long time.

#12 jdbastro

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:53 PM

Switch to 1080p @ 30 FPS .MOV mode instead of AVC-HD. It is the movie mode labeled MOV/FHD 30p on the bottom row of the quick menu screen. That will offer you the best compression for noise that is constantly changing. Make sure you use the MOV/FHD 30p mode that doesn't have the little "I" next to the .MOV. That is the all-I compression scheme that is not good for noise that is always changing. ETC will also work in the 1080p @ 30 FPS mode.


So the GH3 manual states that the data rate for MOV/1080p @ 30 FPS is approx 50 Mbps (Mbits/sec) on page 178. My current SD card is rated at 45 MB/s (Mbytes/sec). So does this mean that I would need a faster card to utilize this video mode?

Thanks.

#13 jdbastro

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:21 AM

OK. So I tried it tonight with my GH3 and both the .MOV 1080/60p (50 Mbps) and 1080/30p (50 Mbps) encoding modes worked with my 45MB/s card. Bytes vs. bits. 8 bits per byte. I'm good.

#14 mpgxsvcd

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:49 AM

The only requirement for the GH3 is that you have a class 10 or better memory card. Pretty much all memory cards are class 10 or better now. There is absolutely no benefit to using a faster card than class 10 for video with the GH3.

#15 highfnum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

jdbastro you did a good job at picking up faint parts of HH nebula. you are getting better at this. this summer and if you got access to real dark site i request you try to go for real faint stuff like m57 outer shell and m27 tuff's
here is my attempt at each - I think I got them but it at limit even with IIE - dark site is must- m57 first then- m27

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#16 highfnum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:26 PM

m27 was a little easier notice little tuffs on bright lobes
(not stringy side lobes)

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#17 jdbastro

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:19 PM

jdbastro you did a good job at picking up faint parts of HH nebula. you are getting better at this. this summer and if you got access to real dark site i request you try to go for real faint stuff like m57 outer shell and m27 tuff's
here is my attempt at each - I think I got them but it at limit even with IIE - dark site is must- m57 first then- m27


I will definitely gives those a try. Maybe even next month when I make my next dark site excursion.

For your pics of M57 / M27 did you use an H-alpha filter to help get the faint parts by improving contrast?

#18 highfnum

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:13 AM

Yes halpha a must also at f 4
You need allphotons yoi can get

#19 half meter

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

I've seen the horsehead in a 66mm with my Collins I3 GEN 3+.

Real time astronomy...

#20 nytecam

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:06 AM

jdbastro you did a good job at picking up faint parts of HH nebula. you are getting better at this. this summer and if you got access to real dark site i request you try to go for real faint stuff like m57 outer shell and m27 tuff's here is my attempt at each - I think I got them but it at limit even with IIE - dark site is must- m57 first then- m27

I think you've shown this M57 pic before. How are you able to distinguish EOD halation [bright object bleed] from the real outer shell :question:

#21 highfnum

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 03:28 AM

That's why I want second independent test
I compared with long ecposure ccd halpha
Shot size I'd about right
But it at bordet line m27 is easier
Cause not symetrical

#22 cnoct

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

jdbastro,

You and this HorseHead & Flame Nebulae Real-time video are just awesome :bow:

It is amazingly difficult to film this in real-time even with an I2 unit, seriously good work. I'm very happy you went with the GH3 over other options.

Take Care!

#23 jdbastro

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:35 AM

jdbastro you did a good job at picking up faint parts of HH nebula. you are getting better at this. this summer and if you got access to real dark site i request you try to go for real faint stuff like m57 outer shell and m27 tuff's
here is my attempt at each - I think I got them but it at limit even with IIE - dark site is must- m57 first then- m27


OK, so here's a 10 sec exposure of M57 with H-alpha filter. Did I get the outer shell or do I need to take a longer exposure?

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#24 highfnum

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:00 AM

What f num whe re you at?
Did you try m27?

#25 jdbastro

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:08 AM

What f num whe re you at?
Did you try m27?


f12 using a Takahashi Mewlon 250.

This is my longest exposure so far of M27 (10 sec):

I also have a video that I'll post soon.

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