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Hexagon, possible?

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#26 azure1961p

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:29 PM

So it wasn't a smooth polar ellipse but an faceted hexagon?

Pete

#27 E_Look

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:32 PM

I wonder what combination of forces could cause that effect!

#28 contedracula

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:56 AM

I've used at same time three telescope in the last 2 weeks, 14" SC, 10" MakNewton and 180mm Refractor.
Seeing II Antoniadi Mark V and a lot of eyepieces but impossible to resolve the Hexagon shape, only as polar circle.

Cheers
Gianluca

#29 azure1961p

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:35 PM

It IS quite the testament to modern imaging these days. I think even an 8" aperture can resolve the hex but based on my experience is slippy seeing anyway and everyone else's experiences it would seem to be seriously difficult for any scope.

Pete

#30 leviathan

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:20 AM

So what is the theoretically minimum aperture we need to resolve shape of Hexagon visually ? David Knisely's answer will be interesting.

#31 contedracula

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:44 AM

I believe the really problem not is the only resolution but expecially the contrast.
Through my C14HD I resolve the polar zone but NOT like AP180EDT or MN106 in these last two telescopes I see very well the edge of polar Storm but never in this season the shape of the sides as hexagon.

Thanks
Gianluca

#32 leviathan

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:54 AM

The reason I'm asking because I saw it only once in 600mm telescope, and David Gray was reporting about shape of it using 400mm. Seems that something like 400mm+ is needed together with good to excellent seeing to be able to resolve it.

#33 contedracula

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:55 AM

All of us have a conscience very influenceable and especially when we look an object previously seen easily become fool by the imagination ...

I'm not referring to your specific example, but I've read in many forums a lot of "fantasy objects" observed through the Dobson 600mm :roflmao:

My opinion, the BIG Dobson is the BEST PERFORMER for deep sky but for Hi Res Planetary it's really a problem to do long night of observation with hi magnification at 10 feet by the ground and manual tracking :question:

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Gianluca

#34 leviathan

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:46 PM

Gianluca, telescope I've used was not a deepsky Dobsonian, but observatory Zeiss-600 Cassegrain 100 feet above the ground under dome. And it was not the first time that I've looked through it.

#35 contedracula

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 01:06 PM

For this reason, I repeat, my last message was not referring about your example, to have those diameters for us, amateur astronomer, is possible only with dobson.

Thanks
Gianluca

#36 azure1961p

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:41 PM

Well yeah but -

A "deepsky Newtonian" of immense size in dob form can be beyond any resolution you'll ever get out of a Mak newt or apo or C14. There is the problem of matching the sky conditions to the mirrors potential resolution envelope but the notion that because its a dob for example instead of a cassegrain or some such holds no water. Well maybe a drop. Standing on a ladder hand guiding a dob is just not that bad!!!!

Pete
-no I don't own a huge dob but I ve seen what they can do.

#37 mikey cee

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:19 PM

Boy if I lived near the 30th parallel I could see all kinds of stuff...without qustion!! :smirk:Mike

#38 contedracula

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:42 AM

If I buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini I cannot expect to heat the tires on 5th av. because the road is not adequate.

If I have a Dobson that gives me a lot of resolution but the seeing will allow it once per year is better to prefer a Telescope that makes a strong contrast almost every nights because the human eye needs LIVE CONTRAST, we don't have Photoshop during observation, a large obstruction waste too much contrast.

Today the market offers more items for astrophotography better than to observers, this has allowed to sell more economic and portable instruments forgetting there are telescopes created for a specific amateur activity.

Kindly regards
Gianluca

#39 Achernar

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:27 AM

Indeed, I routinely look at Omega Centauri from a site near Mobile Alabama. Most of the sky is accessible from the 30th parallel in either hemisphere. That would be where I would want to put a major observatory, or as close to it as possible.

Taras

#40 leviathan

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:05 AM

If I have a Dobson that gives me a lot of resolution but the seeing will allow it once per year is better to prefer a Telescope that makes a strong contrast almost every nights because the human eye needs LIVE CONTRAST, we don't have Photoshop during observation, a large obstruction waste too much contrast.

You can make aperture mask or use lower magnifications on those nights. Anyway smaller aperture will not show planet better and brighter that bigger one.

#41 contedracula

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 02:27 PM

This is partly true but - if - it was totally would have bought all of us a 20" Dobson because it costs 1/10 of Big APO

There are many other factors that penalize a large mirror... all the glitters is not gold ;)

Thanks
Gianluca

#42 David Gray

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:25 PM

Possible? I have had several fair sightings this apparition so I would say yes - at least incipiently definable I venture to say! The current light surroundings (NPR) of the NP Cap perhaps giving rather unusually ideal circumstances. Details with attached recent observation.

Attached Files



#43 idp

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

The current light surroundings (NPR) of the NP Cap perhaps giving rather unusually ideal circumstances. Details with attached recent observation.


Excellent remark. The edge of the North Polar Cap has been quite a high-contrast feature these months.

It looked "angular" to me at the end of May with a 10" refractor, though still nothing definite.

I wonder whether combing through archives of visual observations would yield more examples of notes like "cap edge not smooth" etc. I guess though that such observations of border-line features were easily dismissed.

Regards,

Ivano

#44 azure1961p

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:20 PM

David,

Beautiful work! I was wondering when you might post another Saturn. I think its pretty well a shutout detail for my 8" but its still compelling to seek it out. My treasure is is seeing the ellipse and the lighter apron of atmosphere surrounding it like a collar. Believe it or not in 6/10 seeing its a tough call with my 8" to see even that. My 70mm in similar seeing doesn't see it at all.

I noticed you got some nice condensations along the EZ along with the thin equatorial belt that bisects this zone. Nicely rendered.

Pete
Ps: your post reminds me Ive still yet put an apodizer together.

#45 David Gray

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

Thanks Pete, Ivano.

Ivano your remarks: "I wonder whether combing through archives of visual observations would yield more examples of notes like "cap edge not smooth" etc. I guess though that such observations of border-line features were easily dismissed." led me to the following:

I have just put together some thoughts in connection to what I said last post re. NPR/NPC difficulties. Attached is a scenario where conditions may have developed more favourably for a time following the 1960 Botham White spot (NNTZ).

Note in the first drawing the huge size of the NPC: I rather regard this as a very dark NPR. Checking some reports from late 1959 there was actually a smaller dark NPC within this. Either way I am not going to accuse Dollfus of poor drawing technique!!!

Dave.

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#46 idp

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:55 PM

Hi Dave,

Very interesting finding and remarks, as usual. I agree that Dolfuss's drawing depicts a darkened NPR, rather than the NPC.

I'd also note that while a fine (or rather, outstanding) observer, Ruggieri was working with a just a 10" newton; even supposing that the "hexagon" was there and conditions were favorable, he may simply not have had enough of a telescope to spot it.

As for high-latitude GWSs being the root of the hexagon-like current: amateurs have only recently been able to image it, but the feature was discovered during the Voyager flybys and Cassini found it there. In other words, it seems to be rather stable, rather than connected to temporary and far-apart events. There are a few professional papers out there on the topic (such as Ingersoll at al., "Icarus", 2011), I seem to remember that the action of high-latitude GWSs was not considered but my memory could fail me.

Regards,

Ivano

#47 idp

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:54 PM

By the way: I stumbled upon this 1998 observation of the SPC by Richard Schmude jr, and I wonder whether this is how an observer could depict a prominent "corner". The telescope used by Schmude was a 51cm newt. f/4.5, seeing I (ant.)

Regards,

Ivano

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#48 David Gray

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:14 AM

Thanks Ivano,

Richard McKim is currently dealing with a long backlog of BAA reports on behalf of the Saturn Section. So I have my 1998 obs’ns to hand and soon found the attached! I do not know the exact date of Schmude’s drawing you attached but the similarity with my attached 1998 Oct 7 intensity sketch is striking. I had a transit for this “c. of dusky proj.(int. 4.25) n.edge of SPB 22:23 UT (SSTZ lighter (int. 2.5) f. this (3.25 p.)).” I would hesitate to say hexagon here however: the corner/vertex looks a bit extreme; but certainly suggestive!. Later in the week, when more time, I will take a longer look at my obs. around those years – I have 67 sessions for 1997/98 and 80+ for 1998/99.

I was in touch with Saturn Director Mike Foulkes re. the NPC hexagon effect recently and his response included this with regard to the SPC: “……..On a related topic, over the weekend an American observer sent out some images indicating that that there was a hexagon over the south pole in 2006. Having looked at the images and other observations at the time I find myself in the negative on this I have transformed some images from this time into polar projections and the results are inconclusive. In addition the few Cassini images that I have seen just show (to me at any rate) a regular SPR with a dark spot (the vortex) at the centre but with no hexagon. But I'm looking at other observations around these years……...

As Richard McKim now has most observers' reports for 1994 to 2001 to hand I will alert him to look out for any hexagon-like features/impressions.

Dave.

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#49 idp

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:45 AM

Hi Dave,

Schmude's observation is dated Sep. 27, 1998, 21:00 UT. He used 380x, no filters. At the time he sent copies of his observations of Saturn to the Italian Astronomical Union, that's why I have this one.

So your observations are more than 2 months apart, yet similarities are stunning. I'd give credit to Schmude's report: big telescope, seeing excellent, experienced observer. I would not venture either into interpretations, looks more like a protuberance or a DS from the drawings - but then, I guess that's how an observer would have "classified" and tried to interpret such a feature.

Thanks for yet another interesting conversation.

Ivano

#50 azure1961p

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 01:25 PM

Very good point Ivano. That could have been how the hex was interpreted . I agree the similarities here are quite impressive. It is a little universe in its own with regard to perception when the senses are pushed this hard so its nice to see corresponding observation support these threshold features. It could have been something else too but its compelling enough to consider the hex too.

Really nice work guys.

Pete






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