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What can you see with a 60mm Refractor?

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#1 pdxmoon

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:06 PM

There's quite a good thread in the forum on 80mm viewing. I thought I'd ask the question: what about 60mm viewing (especially the moon)?

I know there's a 60mm scope group (I just joined) on Yahoo. I'd be interested in hearing from y'all about your 60 scopes, which I know some of you must have!

:-)

#2 jrbarnett

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:14 PM

A whole lot, or so I'm learning. :grin:

http://www.cloudynig...hp?item_id=2862

I have a dusk-til-dawn night on calendar this September from a magnitude 8 at zenith dark sky site that will be specifically devoted to one or more 60mm scopes, and working through many targets on the Challenge List in the article, as well as as many of the 500+ objects referenced in Peter Birren's updated Objects in the Heavens small scope finder atlas and field guide.

Regards,

Jim

#3 azure1961p

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:18 PM

A little less than an 80mm but its in the same league. With some reservations its identical with slight brightness and clarity improvement in the 80mm. The slightly higher angular res puts a little more definition things but again, its splitting hairs. Both are very minimalist scopes on lunar and planetary but both in the same token, if well made will put out astonishingly good images at 80x per inch of aperture, seeing willing.

An 80mm beats a 60mm but its still the same observing bracket.



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#4 pdxmoon

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:22 PM

Wonderful project, Jim! Glad to find your write up on it==and I'd LOVE to have that Sears Scope! :jawdrop:

#5 T1R2

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:30 PM

I just use mine for looking at the moon also, when the moon is waxing brighter sometimes I can't see myself lugging out the 5" since most everything else is getting washed out, its easy to set up and fun to use and is vital to my observing needs.

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#6 pdxmoon

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:03 PM

Great red beauty! is the bag a counterweight system?

#7 T1R2

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:36 PM

Yes, I attached a 1.25 celestron prism with a hose clamp and it needed it pretty bad, the alt/locks don't work for that much of a load since the scope is balanced for .965's

#8 davidmcgo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:58 PM

There's quite a good thread in the forum on 80mm viewing. I thought I'd ask the question: what about 60mm viewing (especially the moon)?

I know there's a 60mm scope group (I just joined) on Yahoo. I'd be interested in hearing from y'all about your 60 scopes, which I know some of you must have!

:-)


I have a little Edmund Voyager 6001 that is a fun little Moon scope. Good challenges are seeing Hadley Rille, the main secondary crater chain by Copernicus, a couple of domes near Kies and Milichius. A little of the Triesnecker Rill system is also visible at optimum placement, just a little after first quarter.

I would very much recommend a copy of Exploring the Moon with Binoculars and Small Telescopes by Cherrington.

For double stars, Gamma Virginis should be a nice little peanut at 100x or so. The companion to Rigel should be visible in winter. From a real dark sky, glimpsing some stars around the edges of M13 should be possible. Nebulae like the Lagoon and Swan show quite nicely.

Pretty much anything you can find is game for it. No extragalactic globulars or quasars, but pretty much any other class of object can be seen.

I have bigger scopes but also enjoy the challenge of fishing with light tackle as it were. My main hangup these days is I don't drive to a dark sky site with just the little scopes so they mainly get use in the back yard in town.

Dave

#9 pdxmoon

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:22 AM

Dave:

There's an Edmund for sale here on the local Craig's List for $140. It's a sweet looking, mod design red and white, on a table top perch. That the one you have?

#10 Astrojensen

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:18 AM

A little of the Triesnecker Rill system is also visible at optimum placement, just a little after first quarter.



I thought I was the only one who had ever done that in modern times with a 60mm. I know Gruithuisen had done it with his 2.5" Fraunhofer, back in the mid 1800's, but I can't recall ever having heard of others having seen it in a 60mm. It's good to have some backup! The connection rille between Rima Aridaeus and Rima Hyginus is also possible, under extremely favorable conditions. It's visible as a very faint, dark line, between the ends of the two rilles, where they are closest to each other.

No extragalactic globulars or quasars



Wrong! :) Done both with my 63mm Zeiss. G1 and 3C273. Several BL Lac objects within reach as well.

glimpsing some stars around the edges of M13 should be possible.



I can also confirm this.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

#11 Sasa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:35 AM

I do not have 63mm lens for a long time (since last summer) and I did not make too many sketches through it. You can find some of them at the bottom of this obsolete page (not I have full Telementor 2 setup but I had no time to update the web page):

http://www-hep2.fzu..../Zeiss_C63.html

There are examples of views on planets, Moon and some DSO.

#12 t.r.

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:15 AM

This is a good start...

http://www.birrendesign.com/astro.html



#13 Niklo

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:48 AM

Wrong! :) Done both with my 63mm Zeiss. G1 and 3C273. Several BL Lac objects within reach as well.

Wow, I've never tried it with neither with my Vixen 80 nor with my Bresser Newton 114. It should be +12,86 mag so that is really heavy (similar like watching one of the stars in M57 with a 4" refractor).
I read one report that somebody saw a *central star* in M57 with 4" but I didn't believe it. Hmm, I change my mind ;)
Maybe if the sky is really dark it could be possible ...
Clear sky,
cheers,
Roland

#14 Sasa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:12 AM


Wrong! :) Done both with my 63mm Zeiss. G1 and 3C273. Several BL Lac objects within reach as well.

Wow, I've never tried it with neither with my Vixen 80 nor with my Bresser Newton 114. It should be +12,86 mag so that is really heavy (similar like watching one of the stars in M57 with a 4" refractor).
I read one report that somebody saw a *central star* in M57 with 4" but I didn't believe it. Hmm, I change my mind ;)
Maybe if the sky is really dark it could be possible ...
Clear sky,
cheers,
Roland


Thanks for the link to an interesting report. However, I do not see anything about spotting central star in M57. All was about faint stars around M57. But I used Google Translate for which it is not always easy to understand the result of the translation.

#15 Niklo

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:32 AM

Yes, you are right is was the Zentralstar of M27 and faint stars around 15mag near the ring of M57 in a 4" refractor. I mixed it up. I'm sorry.
Even this report with the faint stars near the ring is almost unbelievable. ;)
Clear sky,
Roland

Thanks for the link to an interesting report. However, I do not see anything about spotting central star in M57. All was about faint stars around M57. But I used Google Translate for which it is not always easy to understand the result of the translation.



#16 Sasa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:42 AM

I also use faint stars around M57 as a test of my limiting magnitude. On good nights, I can see in my 4" scope (ED100) with some concentrating effort 14.1 magnitude star. And I find on my sketches stars below 14th magnitude (record was 14.4). But this is from my backyard from small time just on the border of 1.5 million people city. Definitely not ideal conditions. People with better eyes and skies can reach 15th magnitude with 4" telescopes.

#17 Niklo

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:04 AM

OK, you make me curious. I'll try if I can reach 13 magnitude with my 80 mm refractor. What is the limit what you can see with naked eyes from your backyard?
Do you see a bright milky way?
Cheers,
Roland

I also use faint stars around M57 as a test of my limiting magnitude. On good nights, I can see in my 4" scope (ED100) with some concentrating effort 14.1 magnitude star. And I find on my sketches stars below 14th magnitude (record was 14.4). But this is from my backyard from small time just on the border of 1.5 million people city. Definitely not ideal conditions. People with better eyes and skies can reach 15th magnitude with 4" telescopes.



#18 Astrojensen

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:27 AM

I read one report


Now there's a man who understands long-focus refractors. How to mount them and how to use them. What an absolute pleasure to read!

And I don't doubt his results. It seems pretty clear to me that he has used the Skiff photometry stars near M57 to judge how deep he could go with his 100mm. He knows what he's doing. Resolving even the brightest halo stars in NGC 6227 is pretty damn amazing! Only an expert observer could do that with a 4", no matter how good the conditions are.

With my 85mm Zeiss, I've seen stars to around mag 14.5 and used it to see four globulars in M31, which are around mag 13.5 - 14.5.

The faintest star I've recorded with my 63mm Zeiss is a mag 13.6 star near the BL Lac object Tonantintzla 490 in Leo. The Mag 13.1 star near M57 has also been spotted, but it seems more difficult than its magnitude would indicate, because it is near the bright nebula.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

#19 Astrojensen

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:35 AM

OK, you make me curious. I'll try if I can reach 13 magnitude with my 80 mm refractor. What is the limit what you can see with naked eyes from your backyard?
Do you see a bright milky way?
Cheers,
Roland


You don't need super dark skies to push an 80mm beyond mag 13. What you do is that you use magnification to darken the sky background until it becomes dark enough to allow you to spot the dim stars. Depending on how dark your skies are, this takes medium to high magnification. I know one observer, who has taken his 63mm Zeiss to mag 13 from light-polluted Chester, England. He used high magnifications and shielded his eyes from stray light, allowing him to get a good dark adaption, despite the light pollution.

By using 100x magnification or higher, I can take my 63mm Zeiss to mag 12, despite a very bright summer sky, with a limiting mag of 2 - 2.5, with the milky way nowhere to be seen.

But obviously, the better the conditions are, the merrier.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

#20 Sasa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:03 AM

OK, you make me curious. I'll try if I can reach 13 magnitude with my 80 mm refractor. What is the limit what you can see with naked eyes from your backyard?
Do you see a bright milky way?
Cheers,
Roland


I'm not sure about my naked eyes limit, I guess most of the time it is in 4.5-5.0 range. I do not determine this number because I feel it is slightly irrelevant. Whenever I take my eye from the eyepiece, I got hit by the light from the nearby street lamps (and unfortunately only street lamps, but also much higher and brighter lamps which border nearby railway). There are everywhere and I quickly loose a lot of my dark adaptation. But on good nights, like the last one, I could see brightest parts of Milky Way in Cygnus.

As Thomas was writing, the key is to use high enough magnification and shielding your eyes from local light sources. Magnitude 13 should be very well doable in your 80mm telescopes. I could see, for example the 13.1 magnitude star near M57.

Cheers,

Alexander

#21 BigC

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:35 AM

Well,I,for one,thought a 60mm worthless for deep sky,even things like M42.

That was before I did three things.

Acquired a decent 60mm on an EQ mount,used better oculars ,and stayed out long enough in the dark for my eyes to adapt.

I conjecture that many people are sorely disappointed in their new telescope because the person's eyes haven't dark adapted due to lack of time or too much nearby light.The tiny *BLEEP* H oculars typically sold with 60mm scopes don't help .I can just visualize/remember young (or old)people going out with the shiny new telescope expecting to see something like the pictures on the box.And using an ordinary flashlight to read charts.Or having helpful/worried family turning on porch or yard lights "to be sure they're alright".Then being able to see only the bright Moon or a few stars the telescope user gives up.

After all the typical 60mm should show objects 100 times fainter than the un-aided eye.

Patience is definitely a virtue in astronomy.People today are impatient,myself included.

Once I learned to wait for dark adaption,the size and detail of M42 in just a 60mm was a surprise.

You can split a lot of doubles and see definite color in stars with a 60mm.

#22 Rutilus

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:29 PM

Fun scopes for many different types of objects.

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#23 Astrojensen

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:34 PM

After all the typical 60mm should show objects 100 times fainter than the un-aided eye.



That is true only if we look at objects with the same exit pupil on the scope as with the naked eye. In practice, the scope can show considerably fainter objects, because we can magnify dim objects to the ideal detection size and we can dim the sky background when we want to detect dim stars, thereby increasing both our dark adaption and the contrast between the star and the sky background.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

#24 davidmcgo

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

Yes, that is the one. The mount is a little strange, the fork is a little too short and a little too narrow to look to zenith, but it is a fun little scope and sharp, although with chromatic aberration visible.

Dave

#25 davidmcgo

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

A little of the Triesnecker Rill system is also visible at optimum placement, just a little after first quarter.



I thought I was the only one who had ever done that in modern times with a 60mm. I know Gruithuisen had done it with his 2.5" Fraunhofer, back in the mid 1800's, but I can't recall ever having heard of others having seen it in a 60mm. It's good to have some backup! The connection rille between Rima Aridaeus and Rima Hyginus is also possible, under extremely favorable conditions. It's visible as a very faint, dark line, between the ends of the two rilles, where they are closest to each other.

No extragalactic globulars or quasars



Wrong! :) Done both with my 63mm Zeiss. G1 and 3C273. Several BL Lac objects within reach as well.

glimpsing some stars around the edges of M13 should be possible.



I can also confirm this.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


Wow Thomas, you have great eyes and skill! I have seen G1 in my 130mm refractor, as well as Pluto. I never tried with anything smaller. All of my little scopes are non tracking alt azimuth which adds to the challenge and chance of losing the field when changing to higher power.

Dave






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