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July 17 - High Energy Activity near Maginus A

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#1 Trblmkr

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:08 PM

Hello to all, this is my first post so please forgive me if I do not get everything right. On July 17 at approx 10:57 pm while shooting several frames I seem to have caught a high energy event that caused a substantial plume to form over Maginus. Did anyone else catch this event?

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#2 RobDob

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:53 PM

Hey Troublemaker, welcome to the Lunie Bin :)!

That is an interesting shot!

Here's for reference, a pic I took 11/23/12:

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#3 Trblmkr

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:57 AM

Thanks for the welcome and a response. I actually have a series of 10 shots from that set and made a 10 second movie out of them. The plume is moving around like a blown hose. Seems like a few rocks being tossed as well. Is there a seismology report a person can get there hands on ?(LOL) :grin:. Any idea what caused this??

Thanks for the reference pic it lines up nicely.

#4 Dean Norris

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:45 PM

Mark,

Welcome to CN. Your image of the crater Maginus does look interesting! It would be great to see your animation of this event and or the additional images you have. You could send your images and info to ALPO - Lunar section for some feedback on what this could possibly be. Landslide along the crater wall? Impact from a large meteorite? Volcanic activity? Though I don't think there are any domes in the area but I will need to look into this. Recently I began observing the Moon more and have been using some new Lunar atlases. I'll check out this area the next opportunity I get.

Thanks for posting. Dean

#5 Greyhaven

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:31 PM

Mark Welcome to CN and thanks for sharing your shot. I'd love to see the series you took. That could answer the question or rule out some possible causes.
Be Well
Grey

#6 Trblmkr

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

Thank You All for the responses.

I would happily share the series I have but I'm not sure where the "ALPO - Lunar Section" is actually located, I will however look again. (Please pardon my Newbiness javascript:void(0)). Of course you can always tell me where to go - most others do already so I won't be offended LOL. javascript:void(0)

Thanks Again

#7 Dean Norris

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:43 PM

Here's a link to ALPO website.

http://alpo-astronomy.org/

Scroll down and on the left side you will see the observing sections. You will find the Lunar section there.

Dean

#8 azure1961p

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 07:08 AM

I'd be very cautious about referring to it as a "high energy event" unless you are referring to the seeing and transient light and shadow effects. I'm quite sure there was no plume. Unless u r referring to events within the last 50 million years barring the small impacts - the moon is seismically dead. What's more if it were an active volcano or out gassing it wouldn't be a snaking plume appearing to blow downwind for obvious reasons. If you want to see what plumes look like in a vacuum I'd refer you to Io.



Pete

#9 Trblmkr

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:59 AM

As we all know It is difficult to say with absolute certainty what the mechanism(s) may have been that caused the disturbance. I agree it was likely not volcanically induced, as far as seismic there may be a better chance albeit a very small chance of that either, so also agree that it was not likely the cause but I know very little about those 2 subjects so I'm not really qualified to say.

The evidence when considered at face value which consist of 10 frames over ~ 1 second period placed in a series show what appears to be a massive discharge of dust. The discharge is quit visible at the crater entrance of what is believed to be Maginus A. There is also indication of the physical impact this discharge has on the surrounding area as rocks are being visibly thrown considerable distances.

In as far as Transient Light and Shadow affects, I'm not sure how that would be applied to the amount of energy required to push say 1k lbs or more of dust 500-5000 ft upward under what ever gravitational constant that exists at that location. Nor am I sure where the idea of a plume being blown downwind came from. The only observation that can be made is that it was blown upward. I use the definition of plume as follows; In Ecology - A space in air, water, or soil containing pollutants released from a point source. Realizing of course this is literally a Space in Space rather than air (LOL).

After observing the evidence many times I find it is difficult to refute that it is strongly suggesting/indicating there was significant energy involved in this event the question is, where did it come from??????

I think it is totally neat no matter what and I appreciate Your Input. http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Also I am working to get the images posted here in someway. Unfortunately the site does not support any movie formats for upload. http://www.cloudynig...icons/frown.gif

#10 azure1961p

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:44 AM

I think it'd help if you posted your entire vid of this segment. The plume being blown downwind analogy was based on your comment that it was plume appearing. That it was writhing like a hose would only happen if their were an atmosphere to move it or equally unlikely that it was a venting off of gas and dust through a fissure that was undergoing change to send it in varying directions. At this point it could just be a processing error. The entire vid of this segment submitted to the imaging forum for review would be the best way forward from here. Its also not too unbelievable that a persons first post whose an "amature" troublemaker could have just photoshoped such a contrivance for the sake of a troll.

Pete

#11 Trblmkr

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:37 AM

I think it'd help if you posted your entire vid of this segment. The plume being blown downwind analogy was based on your comment that it was plume appearing. That it was writhing like a hose would only happen if their were an atmosphere to move it or equally unlikely that it was a venting off of gas and dust through a fissure that was undergoing change to send it in varying directions. At this point it could just be a processing error. The entire vid of this segment submitted to the imaging forum for review would be the best way forward from here. Its also not too unbelievable that a persons first post whose an "amature" troublemaker could have just photoshoped such a contrivance for the sake of a troll.

Pete

I can't imagine what would the point be in trying to photoshop a lunar event like this. What purpose would it serve? My only purpose is to share not to deceive!
Beyond that to say that an amateur "troublemaker" posted it, apparently I'll have to demonstrate in some way my professional abilities to cause trouble. BACKGROUND - The Nic comes from my day job as Compliance Enforcement, I'm always in the middle of sorting out and fixing some major issue thus being viewed as a professional "Trouble Maker". At the end of the day though its all about the facts.
If you like PM me about the Lunar pic sequence availability.

#12 Trblmkr

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:24 AM

See pics posted - these are zoomed in pics that make up the sequence.
http://www.cloudynig...=221102&cat=500

#13 NeilMac

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:58 AM

Welcome !
very interesting, If it is a cloud, would that not suggest a "non" vacuum area?

#14 Trblmkr

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

Somehow thru some means of differential pressure or mechanical ejection the dust was moved from the subsurface of the moon and out of the crater to the surface.
I'm not sure what the actual absolute pressure is on the surface I have heard there is some atmosphere, if so the pressure would be greater than 0 PSIA or 29.92" Hg (complete vacuum) at the surface. Even if it were 5 psia that is little resistance to the potential required to create a cloud of that magnitude. May have to do some rudimentary calculation on what it might take.

#15 David Knisely

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:07 PM

The resolution of the original image seems rather low with some distortion in the outer sections. A sudden seeing variation can also lead to a reduction in clarity over a small area, making details blur to a point where the image looks like a plume when it is really just blurred surface detail combined with surface albedo. Again, we would need to see the whole series of images to get a better judgement of what is might have been (and even then, there might be a question of its being anything more than an imaging effect rather than a true plume). Clear skies to you.

#16 azure1961p

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

A PM isn't required for posting . You can upload it to Vimeo or YouTube. Something anyone can do.

Pete

#17 Dean Norris

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:55 PM

Thanks for posting the sequence of images. The "plume" does seem to grow larger in size and diminish in intensity form first to last. This is a compelling set of images.

Dean

#18 Trblmkr

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 03:13 PM

Not sure if you followed the link to the cut & zoomed pics located in the user gallery.

http://www.cloudynig...=221102&cat=500
I would agree looking at only the small pics does not necessarily provide clarity. Though I am willing to provide, the technical limitations of this site prevents uploading the original images as they are over 2 meg ea. The area covered by the originals can be seen in the compressed master at the link above. If there is real interest in examining a copy of the originals please PM me. Also i have found using the Picasa viewer allows an expanded view without excess distortion. Hope this helps.

#19 Trblmkr

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 03:26 PM

I will look into this but I was under the impression that they would have to be in a video form rather than stills for You Tube. I have found there is a significant loss of resolution when converting stills to Video.No matter there is plenty more to look at. It just takes time to convert for posting. In order to maintain the original resolution I may just post them on Picasa and provide a link.

Thanks for the info!!

#20 pdxmoon

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 05:38 PM

Why don't you just post this to Youtube and let us take a look?

#21 RobDob

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:57 PM

I made a movie with Windows Movie Maker using Mark's 10 frames with 1 sec frame interval. Very interesting...

I'm wondering if this was an impact event. Those first few frames show a condensed, bright region (suggestive of an impact?) with a dissipating plume spreading outward in the subsequent frames. Some craters and features were obscured, then re-appear. Most bizarre!

We really need to re-visit this crater next month and see if there is any noticeable difference.

Rob

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#22 RobDob

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:40 AM

Look at frames 1 through 5, looks like there is a shadow cast at the end of the plume. Go to frame 10, seems to have settled.

Don't think there is too much seeing/lighting variation, because the outlying craters remain fairly consistent.

Fascinating! Great work Mark!

Rob

#23 steveward53

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 01:03 AM

Just get on and make the animated GIF , post it on Astrobin with the full size images and then post links to it on here .

I'm getting tired of the troll-like answers you are providing , as I suspect is everyone else ... :flame:

#24 RobDob

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 01:41 AM

I took a comparison mosaic of frame 2 to frame 10. To me it appears that the plume has settled outward to the upper right edge of the crater in frame 10.

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#25 Trblmkr

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

UPDATE See YOU TUBE LINK BELOW
1 WMV format video consisting of three sets of 10 frames.
Set 1 from a distance with cropped edges, 1 Close Zoom and Cropped then repeated. Stop the video on the Close Zoom and Crop for great detail of the discharge.

Also I found some reference material that may point to an exact location of the discharge. I'll post later today. Sorry I'm slow, this stuff is a bit labor intensive.
I must thank those that have taken a serious interest in this unusual lunar event. Your efforts to validate and understand what actually occurred will ultimately help everyone.

Thanks For your patients!!!

Maginus 1






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