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Still Can't See the Veil

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#1 REC

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:04 AM

Well, I just got a new 2" DGM NPB nebula filter and tried to see the Veil nebula with my 8" SCT and still can't see it :(

I had 52 cgy in the fov, so I know it was there. I moved the scope around some to push the star out of the view, but real sign of it. I was using my 28mm SWA EP. I even tried my older Meade narrowband on a 24mm SWA and no luck there.

The sky was probably 3/5 for transparency, so not too bad and I do have some LP to deal with. Next out I will try it in my 10" DOB...if I can find it?

I know you need dark skies for this, but thought the filter would help a lot to get through the muck?

Bob

#2 ndelo

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:15 AM

How much LP are you observing under?

I live in a red-border-of-white LP zone and just barely, barely, barely make it out with filters in an 18" dob.

#3 Jon_Doh

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:53 AM

Tried to see it last night in an 8" SCT and could barely make it out.

#4 curiosidad

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:58 AM

Hello,
I can see the Veil Nebula in full (including Pickering triangle) with 10X50 binoculars (very poor quality) with two filters DGM UHC 2 "placed on the front lens, Also the North America Nebula so fantastic, the Pelicano very faint, and all under moderately polluted sky, not black sky!
luck

#5 aatt

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:40 AM

I can see it from an orange zone w/o a filter in my 15"-just barely.With my 6", I need good transparency. With a narrowband filter, I can see it fairly well with the 15". The semi-dark site I go to really helps it pop in both instruments.

#6 John_G

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:40 AM

Last time I was at a Bortle 3 location, I could see both east and west with my 10x50s without filters.

#7 REC

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:36 AM

Hi, I live in a red zone. Last night I could just barely make out the constellation Corona which I use as a guide as to how faint I can see. The last star in the "C" is mag.5 and I could just barley see it. It is straight overhead and all of the Hercules keystone. I was looking ay M13 as well last night.

Perhaps I need for it to get a little higher in the sky to try again. I think I will try it again in my 9x63 Bino's and put the filter on the front of one of the lenses? Otherwise I'm going to use my 10" Dob tonight if it stays clear :)

#8 Kraus

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:52 AM


Hmmm...Bob. I've seen the Veil only with an OIII filter. And since the veil is nearly straight up for you and I, light pollution is pretty much unimportant.

#9 hbanich

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:57 PM

The amount of light pollution can make all the difference in the visibility of low surface brightness objects like the Veil, even when it's at the zenith. An OIII or UHC-type filter will certainly help, but the darkness and transparency of the sky are more important.

For instance, the limiting magnitude in my backyard used to be about 5.0 on a good night, and with a 20 inch f/5 Dob and an OIII filter the Veil was quite dim. At a true dark sky site the Veil was easier to see in an 8 inch f/4 Dob without a filter.

The OP will have a better chance with his 10 inch scope, but his sky conditions will determine what will be visible.

#10 EJN

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:35 PM

I routinely see the Veil with an 8" f/5 Newtonian, living at the border
of a red/white zone. But only with an OIII filter, any other filter
and it is invisible.

#11 AstroTatDad

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:06 AM

Bob did you have any near lights near you? My red zone is not an issues with the Veil it's more of the near by lights. With my light blockers up, something over my head and keeping my eyes dark adapted I'm set. With my Lumicon OIII I need it dark as I can make it. Any near by lighting really messes my eyes up fast and can't see much.

#12 azure1961p

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:05 AM

Its got to be light pollution/ transparency issues. My 8" with standard coatings on the mirrors and an OIII or UHC makes the entire Veil visible . Its not a suggestion - its really there. The wisp of nebulosity about 52 Cygni terminates to a sharp point and flutters with mottled intensities. The arc that resembles so many shredded veils through an 18" for example is a very complex affair. It doesn't dhow the shredded veils as defined as an 18" of course but there is no doubt there is a lot of intricate fluttering structure about in a network of lights and darks. My naked eye limiting mag there was 6.2v. I loved the view so much I lost all interest in. 5.5v sky's and absolutely 5v. At 6.2 my sky's certainly weren't the desert but they proved to show most everything you'd expect to see. The brighter sky's though - its like someone drained the contrast out of the nebula.

Try for better sky's and so long as I have 52 in your field with a filter - its a profoundly unforgettable view.

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#13 REC

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 08:35 AM

Yeah, must be the sky conditions holding me up. Last night I could get to 5mag. at zenith, but lower I had a lot of sky glow. I don't know why, but my skies seem to hav more LP than I can remember. I can see things around me when I'm out too easily.

I think the humidity in the air is making the LP and sky glow worse. This probably effects the transparency more I think. I'll try it again in my 10" Dob on 52cyg and cover my head.

Thanks for all your suggestions, you guys are great :bow:

Bob

#14 REC

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:29 PM

Oh, going through some of my old S&T mag and found in in depth article on viewing the Veil by Alan Whitman. It's a great article and map of the area. It is available from the internet if you search for it.

#15 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:45 PM

I suggest looking for NGC 6992, the eastern segment, first. It's more prominent than NGC 6960.

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#16 youngamateur42

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:30 AM

I've seen 6995 (brighter area in (I think) a white zone or worse (dunno but bottom line is that it's very severe), my skies are really bad. I've got good eyes, but it was REALLY faint with my 6" at 39x with Celestron UHC. Believe I or not, I could see it in the 6x30mm finder. I had a clearer night, so that really helped

#17 REC

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:07 AM

Well, that's very encouraging that you where able to see it in all that LP and with a 6" scope....BTW, had one way back when and it was my first real scope!

#18 MrJones

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

I can see it most nights with my Z12 and 34mm SWA and often with the C9.25, 34mm SWA and f/6.3 reducer. My OIII filter is a little better than NB nebula filter but they both work and I've seen it a few times in the Z12 with no filter.

It's big - use your lowest magnification EP AND focal reducer with a C8! Even then I'm pretty sure you can only fit about half the broom in the FOV.(?) Once you've seen it, it's easier the next time.

#19 CelestronDaddy

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:18 PM

I've seen the Veil before in far dark west Texas. It was with my friends RV-6. I recall it wasn't hard to see and we didn't have any type of filter either. The sky was dark, totally unlike where I am now in an orange zone near Austin Texas. I've tried looking for it in my 6"SCT and I wasn't successful. I've got an O-III on the way so maybe that will help. If not I'll venture out to a darker location and I would imagine I could see it then. Good thread....

#20 REC

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:54 AM

Ok, I have a 34mm SWA and I will try that out in my A10" on the next clear night. That will give me 36x and 2* FOV.

Clear skies!

Bob

#21 Tony Flanders

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 08:12 AM

Bob,

I think you're working under a triple handicap. First of all, the small field of view of an SCT is ill-suited for recognizing this object -- though just fine for viewing it in detail once you've nabbed it. Second, landing on it via Go To is a problem, because you're arriving blind, as it were. If you had star-hopped to it, you would have a better sense of how it fits into the surroundings.

Finally, although NGC 6960, the arc through 52 Cyg, is much easier to find, it's also much fainter than NGC 6992/6995, the smaller but more intense eastern arc. However, NGC 6992/6995 has no readily identifiable stars or star patterns to tell you where to look.

If it's any comfort, I had a very hard time seeing the Veil -- until I'd seen it. Like so many things, now that I know what it looks like, it's a piece of cake. I can even see it through my 70-mm refractor in the white zone if I use an O III filter.

#22 REC

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:58 AM

Well thanks for your comments Tony, always nice to hear from you:)

Ok then, I see what your talking about with the SCT. I'm going to try is again in my new 10" Dob I just got and also in my 80ED at low power with a 2* FOV. I will use my new 2" DGM NPB filter. The only OIII filter I have is a dedicated SCT type, so can't use that except with my LS8.

BTW, with my 40mm EP I get 1* FOV, so if I pan around some, I should be able to see some of it, right?

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?

Bob

#23 Tony Flanders

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:24 AM

BTW, with my 40mm EP I get 1* FOV, so if I pan around some, I should be able to see some of it, right?


Maybe. But panning around isn't a every effective technique for seeing things that are difficult or marginal. It's much better to star-hop to the correct location with a star chart.

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?


Probably not. The brighter arc is indeed visible through binoculars, but it's pretty tough unless your skies are good and dark. The problem is that it's very hard to fit binoculars with filters, and filters are a huge, huge asset for viewing the Veil.

#24 Ravenous

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:51 AM

Also, what about using my 9x63 Bino's, would that work some you think?

Probably not in the light pollution you describe, I'm afraid. I can make out the brightest part (the small loop) in 8.5x50 binocs, but only if the sky is really dark, and only because I already know exactly what it looks like after using a scope and a filter!

If the sky in my binocs looks "very very" dark grey then the nebula looks merely "very" dark grey. It's that subtle.

The other larger, fainter band (on the opposite side to the smaller loop) is not properly visible in my binocs because the small star that's in the same location outshines it! That's how faint it is...

I think you need to be away from the city, where you can see the milky way really clearly, so dark that you can see the big split around Cygnus with the naked eye. Then you might have a chance with the binocs.

#25 Bernie Poskus

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:52 PM

There is no substitute for an OIII filter. I've seen the Veil repeatedly in my old 8"SCT with an OIII filter (admittedly under fairly dark skies). The only times I've seen the Veil without a filter were under really dark skies, good conditions, and with my 16" dob.

Even if you can see something of the Veil in a light-polluted site, you won't see anything close to the true majesty of this object.

Get thee to a Dark Sky Site!






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