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Giant Binoculars and Suburban Skies

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#26 Chuck Hards

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:10 PM

Comet PanSTARRS was excellent through 15x70mm, 20x70mm & 25x100mm binos from my very light-polluted suburban back yard. They work well on stellar objects such as open clusters and the brighter globulars, as well. It's only galaxies and fainter nebulae that really suffer.

#27 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

I have seen globulars M22, M13 and the ring nebula M57 under full moon conditions in 25x100 binocs. I can't wait to try mine under dark skies. Messier marathons should be a cinch with them.

Jon your 31mm N costs much more than my 25x100s, let alone your 4" setup with mount!

I have seen the Veil in a 13.1" with a Lumicon OIII filter, but not in anything less than a 8" in urban condition.



I will say this, you will have great fun out there when the skies are clear and dark...:whee::jump::whee:

I also have a 100mm F/6 Achromat that I often use, I would suspect the total investment, scope, mount, diagonal, a decent widefield eyepiece would be about the same cost as a pair of 25x100s and a suitable mount. The views in the 100mm F/6 are not so perfect as the NP-101 but otherwise they are quite similar.

For me, I am looking at everything I can see.. double stars, planets, galaxies, nebulae... NGC6572 is ~6 arc-second magnitude 9 planetary, very small but very bright. It's a good one for light polluted skies but not much to see at 25x..

#28 faackanders2

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:17 PM

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.

#29 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:46 AM

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.


Easier than what? Giant binoculars require a serious mount and a case. A fast refractor and see few eyepieces takes up less space and manages with a more compact mount.

Jon

#30 SMark

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:39 PM

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.


Easier than what? Giant binoculars require a serious mount and a case. A fast refractor and see few eyepieces takes up less space and manages with a more compact mount.

Jon


Well, this started as a comparison between 5 lb. giant binoculars and 10 lb. giant binoculars.

#31 curiosidad

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 11:35 AM

Hello,
As an example:
A few years ago I could use some time one 100mm Miyauchi 20X/37X eyepiece.
Well, Flame Nebula not see anything at all in the backyard of my house, but when I went out to the field, is very well appreciated., Beautiful.
And so with many objects, what a difference!
A greeting

#32 faackanders2

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 02:18 PM

What telescope/ filter/ eyepiece did you use to see the Veil Jon in the city?
I like to use both types of instruments. I always use binos first.
If the skies look promising and I'm not too tired I bring out my big scopes and mount. Most of the time it isn't worth the effort.


I have observed the Veil, or better said, detected the Veil, from my urban backyard with an TeleVue NP-101, 31mm Nagler and a Celestron O-III. In larger scopes, it's better, it actually surprisingly good in my 13.1 inch F/5.5 Dob.

From my urban backyard, I just about always start out with a scope, I gauge the size of the scope based on on my energy level... Bigger scopes take long to acclimate so I need to get a head start.

Binoculars are companions to the scope...

Jon


I have never been able to see the viel in binos. 9x63 & 10x63 don't have aperture required to see when pointing at zenith. 25x100's on camera tripod not able to point to zenith to even look. That is where having large 45 or 90 deg binos would be a benefit for observing, but at a significantly greater cost.

#33 saemark30

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

Some people handhold their giant binoculars while lying on the ground or in a chair. That is why it is easier than to drag out the entire telescope setup wait an hr and see the clouds roll in.
Some objects like M101 cannot be seen in suburban areas and there is a point where faint objects such as the veil and horsehead is better suited for larger telescopes and filters. Another option is to use an electronic eyepiece or camera but that is a very different experience.
So for the original question, yes it is worth it to spend money on giant binoculars such as 25x100 because they are simply going to cost more later and might not be produced in the same quantities.

#34 KennyJ

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:03 PM

< So for the original question, yes it is worth it to spend money on giant binoculars such as 25x100 because they are simply going to cost more later and might not be produced in the same quantities.>

I'm afraid I don't understand the implication here that these kind of binoculars "are going to cost MORE in the future".

Why?

Kenny

#35 KarlL

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

I really appreciate everyone's input.

To answer Jon's question, I have an 8 inch f/6 that I'm very happy with.

The question regarding binoculars and light pollution was speculative. I'm sticking with the reflector. It's a very good all-rounder. I'm in the process of saving for a new focuser and ultra wide angle eyepieces.

Regards,

Karl

#36 Glassthrower

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:45 PM

Using 100mm binoculars, it's possible to spot almost every Messier object under light-polluted urban skies. Even if some of the faintest targets are only glimpsed with averted vision, they can be "bagged". Under average NELM 4 to 4.5 skies, I spotted every one except for a couple of the galaxies that eluded me.

Out of all the gear I used over the years, under urban skies, I had the most success with the big binoculars. :)

Best regards and clear dark skies,

MikeG

#37 Glassthrower

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:47 PM

Milton Wilcox R.I.P


Kenny, your sigline reminded me. I miss Milt. It's been a long time, but I am glad he is not forgotten. I wonder what happened to that awesome Kowa big binocular he had?

#38 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:18 AM

I have never been able to see the viel in binos. 9x63 & 10x63 don't have aperture required to see when pointing at zenith.



For what it's worth: I can see the Veil with my 10x50s from a relatively dark site that's on the desert side of the mountains east of San Diego.

Jon

#39 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:28 AM

I really appreciate everyone's input.

To answer Jon's question, I have an 8 inch f/6 that I'm very happy with.

The question regarding binoculars and light pollution was speculative. I'm sticking with the reflector. It's a very good all-rounder. I'm in the process of saving for a new focuser and ultra wide angle eyepieces.

Regards,

Karl


Karl:

Just to add to the confusion.. :)

I do enjoy the combination of a larger scope and some sort of smaller refractor(s). In my mind, the question is, should that be a single refractor, i.e. telescope, or a pair, i.e. binoculars.

From suburban skies, the advantages of a 3 or 4 inch relatively fast telescope are significant so that's a place to start. There is not much one will see in 25x100s that won't be seen in a 4 inch scope but there is a lot that one can see with a 4 inch scope that cannot be seen in the 25x100s.

But everyone needs a good pair of 35mm-50mm binoculars..

Jon

#40 claudedenis

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:21 AM

As a beginner I must say:but everyone needs a good pair of 35mm-50mm-70mm because United Optics ms marine 15x70(alias: Oberwerk Ultra) is a big improvement,for me better than a premium 10x50 pair.
It shows a lot on a monopod,which is a very light equipment. ;)
Under my light pollued skies,first step done.

Second step would be problematic as I prefer observing with my two eyes for several reasons,it gives me more fun and informations.
To follow the wise advice given by Jon Isaacs I need a binoviewer+refractor.
So,what binoviewer+refractor do the same work(and more)as United Optics 28x110 binoculars for the same weight,overall volume and price?
Specifications:
Magnification28x,Objective lens diameter110mm,
PrismsBAK4,Porro Prisms,
FocusingIndividual,eyepiece focusing,
Eye relief18mm,Apparent field of view60°,
Exit pupil diameter3,92mm,
CoatingFull broadband multicoating
Weightca. 6kg
I forget rubber armour and Nitrogen filled which are binoculars qualities.


#41 JustaBoy

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:33 AM

Hi Claude, and Welcome to Cloudy Nights!

You are more likely to get better answers on Refractor/Binoviewer questions in the Binoviewer Forum.

To answer your question: - "So,what binoviewer+refractor do the same job(and more)as United Optics 28x110 binoculars for about the same price?"

The answer is 'None', as the Binoviewer is going to cost more than that just by itself, and you will never be able to get such a wide field - The light is split into 2 parts in the binoviewer, so you will need an even larger refractor than 110mm.

Two different things, really, so maybe the New APM/APO 100mm 45° BT might be the best way to go.

Good Luck!
-Chuck

#42 Eric63

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:04 AM

Bonjour Claude

I think you will find your answer here

http://www.cloudynig...ber/1384879/...

Eric

#43 claudedenis

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

Thank you Eric for the link.
I already bought 15x70 binoculars according to professor EdZ tests and reviews.
Next step will be an apo or achromatic refractor with possibly x100 magnification.
Big binos will wait.I enjoy using the "mini giants".

#44 Rich V.

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

Hi, it's difficult for a telescope/BV to match the wide field views of a big binocular; it must have a very short focal length similar to that of binos to match them in true FOV.

To approximate the views with 28x110 binos, a 150mm f5 refractor with a binoviewer and 24mm Panoptic eyepieces (max. 1-1/4" eyepiece field stop size) would come close. This assumes that the scope/BV can come to focus working at 1x; if it needs an OCA to reach focus, there is no contest.

This scope/BV combo would give you 31x and a slightly smaller FOV than the binos (approx. 2.08° vs. 2.25°) It would give you the advantage that Jon always points out about 90° viewing comfort and variable magnification.

The 110mm binos weigh ~16 lbs. while the refractor weighs around 25 lbs. Of course, mounting the 150mm achro on a simple alt/az mount would be easier than having to put the binos on a HD parallelogram mount to achieve viewing comfort near zenith. The weight of the p-gram could easily exceed a simple alt/az mount for the refractor so you come out with a net loss of portability there.

If you factor in the cost of the p-gram mount with the binos, you probably won't save much money over the scope/cheap BV/mount but I'll leave it to you to do this research... ;)

Rich

#45 Jarrod

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:41 AM

Does it make sense to invest in giant binos living under suburban skies?


I think so. A "reasonable" Chinese 25x100 plus a very sturdy Chinese video tripod can be had for under $500, and will show you a lot, even with moderate LP. One caveat is that you will struggle to view at, or anywhere near zenith without a significantly more expensive mount, or a binocular with 45º or 90º eyepiece/prism assemblies. Search the forum for some viewing reports, to get an idea of what you can experience.

I enjoy straight-through 25x100s, but a 20x80 or 15x70 is significantly easier to deal with, and should show you quite a bit in the city. They also show a wider field of view which is desirable for many. To me, this is the sweet spot that gives a great combo of manageability, affordability, and capability. One of my most memorable observing sessions so far was simply scanning Sagittarius and the milky way at new moon outside my suburban house (red/orange LP zone) with a 15x70. It was fantastic.

#46 claudedenis

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

Thank you for all the answers.
15x70 United Optics binoculars:good optical instrument for a moderate price gives so great satisfaction that one wants for more.
I must consider a 120mm,150mm refractor.

#47 saemark30

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:18 PM

The 15x70mm are so inexpensive everyone should have a pair.
I say the 25x100 are rising in price. They use to cost under $200 and now they are edging upwards to $300 for low end pairs.
There's no telling if the price for these goods can remain so low. Look at what happened to the cost of Japanese optics once the quality is high.
They have skyrockets from the 70's onward.

#48 Rich V.

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:45 PM

Those older model giant binos were a lot poorer quality than the newer models. I'd say that the rising prices of larger binoculars has been easily made up for by the increased quality that's available.

You can still get $65. 15x70s and $100. 20x80s; you can still also get low end 25x100s for $200. For $400., though, you can get a far superior 25x100 like the Oberwerk Deluxe. This applies to the improved 20x80s and 15x70s as well. We've never had better choices, IMO.

The low end binos are remaining pretty inexpensive. It's just now we have new generations of higher quality binos to choose from and of course, they cost more. ;)

Rich

#49 edwincjones

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:41 AM

is anything now matching the quality of the old Tak, Fuji, or high end Nikon binoculars other than Doctor and Kowa

:question: :question:

#50 faackanders2

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:51 AM

Yes, becuse they are easier to take with you wherever you may travel.


Easier than what? Giant binoculars require a serious mount and a case. A fast refractor and see few eyepieces takes up less space and manages with a more compact mount.

Jon


I have taken my Appogee 25x100 and a camera tripod to Mauna Kea, Hawaii (where I couldn't take my 10" or 17.5" dob. I have taken my 9x63 and 15x63 orion mini giants plus smaller binos to Cancun, Mexico; where I didn't want to take the 25x100 or dobs. When we drive on vacation as a family if I can't take eith dob, I can still fit my binos in the car. Sometimes when I am too tired to set up my scope I can still quickly takes out my binos. Yes they are more portable and lightweight than my dobs. Plus some wide and or multiple objects may appear better in wideer binos than a scope. So yes giant binos are useful in suburban skies (as well as dark skies).






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