Jump to content


Photo

10 Micron GM2000HPS

  • Please log in to reply
203 replies to this topic

#1 dgmoses

dgmoses

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2012

Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:28 PM

I'm considering purchasing this mount. At $20K a pop I'd like to know more about it than the manufacturer's fluff. Does anyone know anything about this mount? Do you own one? How do you like it?

Don

#2 bseltzer

bseltzer

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1028
  • Joined: 28 Oct 2007
  • Loc: East S.F.Bay, CA

Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:41 PM

I've no experience at all with any part of the 10 Micron line nor do I know any one that has. But it occurs to me that if you've got a $20K budget, I can think of at least 4 more 'mainstream' vendors that produce top flight mounts at or near that price point. Have you looked the offerings from say, ASA, Astro-Physics, Software Bisque, or Parallax? If so, I'd be interested to know why you found them wanting.

#3 David Pavlich

David Pavlich

    Transmographied

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 27312
  • Joined: 18 May 2005
  • Loc: Mandeville, LA USA

Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:53 PM

From what I've read, they are good mounts, but not many in the states. For your budget and depending on what you're going to be mounting, there's a LOT of mounts out there that have long track records. I would add Mathis Instruments to the mix as well.

David

#4 SPACEMAN

SPACEMAN

    Ranger 4

  • -----
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 30 Jan 2005
  • Loc: grömme,Belgium

Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:45 AM

I have this mount now for 2 years and i LOVE IT!!! It suchs an advanced mount! Really good build quality. I use it for comet observing. the software is really advanced, and the speed / noise is really nice! Sounds very good. Finishing touch is great.
You can make a pointing model up to 100 stars without the use of a computer!!!

#5 Per Frejvall

Per Frejvall

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2012
  • Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden

Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:52 AM

And I have the GM1000HPS and the GM2000HPS. Wouldn't want anything else as I like imaging unguided and have done one-hour subs with the 2000. The sky model is in the mount, a feature unique to 10Micron, so it doesn't even need a computer to track and point within single digit arcseconds.

I believe there is ample support to be had from the new US rep so that wouldn't be a show stopper in my book.

My very personal opinion is that many of the top-end mounts are slightly dated in design. They have held the throne for a long time and now have some serious competition from modern mounts.

Oh, final note: don't get anything that doesn't have absolute encoders from the factory.

/per

#6 dgmoses

dgmoses

    Lift Off

  • -----
  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2012

Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:48 AM

Thanks to all who commented on this mount. I might add that the $20K price includes everything; case, weights, tripod, etc. This is in line with what an AP1100GTO with absolute encoders would cost. It would seem this is a relatively new mount to the US market, and so not much in the way of owner experience on this side of the pond. Should I purchase one I'll certainly report my experiences with it.

Don

#7 contedracula

contedracula

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 167
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2011
  • Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:31 AM

I'm Italian and know very well the 10micron,

The is very good product but the cost / performance ratio here in USA is too unattractive.

If you live in Europe the purchase is a good choice because the assistance is directed, instead you buy in US :question: I have too many doubts for it, with the assistance 6k miles away I think is not the right choice.
For now, I still prefer my Astro-Physics

Besides, spend 20000 bucks for tracking the ISS, no thanks!

Thanks
Gianluca

#8 guyroch

guyroch

    Vendor (BackyardEOS)

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2928
  • Joined: 22 Jan 2008
  • Loc: Under the clouds!

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:58 AM

I believe any North and South America customers could buy it from Deep Space Products in the US and get good support from Ed.

http://www.deepspace...nts_8_4232.html

I have no affiliation with Deep Space Products, just though I'd throw that it since support was mentioned.

Guylain

#9 contedracula

contedracula

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 167
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2011
  • Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL

Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:41 PM

ED iis a great professional and I've bought many things from him with great communication. But a 10micron Mount can't be assisted by phone or email in case of necessity.

If you have a serious problem, probably the Mount should be sent to Italy
Thanks
Gianluca

#10 contedracula

contedracula

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 167
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2011
  • Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL

Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:48 PM

I firmly believe in two things

- Astro-Physics is not competitive in Europe, because the cost is too high after import
- 10micron is not competitive in the US for the same reason

But are both two FineArt products with many " Loyal Consumers "

Thanks
Gianluca

#11 EFT

EFT

    Vendor - Deep Space Products

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2544
  • Joined: 07 May 2007
  • Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:28 PM

ED iis a great professional and I've bought many things from him with great communication. But a 10micron Mount can't be assisted by phone or email in case of necessity.

If you have a serious problem, probably the Mount should be sent to Italy
Thanks
Gianluca


Besides my support here in the US, the mounts can also be connected to and diagnosed remotely from here or Italy. It's a lot easier to do that today than it was not very long ago.

#12 contedracula

contedracula

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 167
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2011
  • Loc: Queens, NYC and Sarasota FL

Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:55 PM

It's true and this can be solved if it is a software problem, but if not?
The mounts who have had problems, purchased by amateur astronomers in Italy ( two friends of mine ) were shipped to 10micron warehouse, in fact the diagnosis identifies the problem but if this is serious cannot be resolved remotely.

When I had problems with an AP1200, in Italy anyone has been able to resolve the problem directly, but only after the intervention, before of Baader and after the Rolando's staff in USA.

So, my opinion is not against 10micron but it's an objective difficulty when you purchase a product CONUS non-native.

This is acceptable with a low cost product, as Chinese brand, but if I buy a Zonda or a RR, I pretend the car service in my home garden :)

Thanks
Gianluca

#13 EFT

EFT

    Vendor - Deep Space Products

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2544
  • Joined: 07 May 2007
  • Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:14 PM

Hardware problems can also be diagnosed remotely to a certain level. Regardless, I will be handling servicing in the US, not just sales, so if someone somehow manages to drop their mount out the back of their truck or otherwise mess it up, it will be coming to me for service. You can't really expect to sell equipment like this on any kind of competitive basis without having support on the same continent and we understand that. The idea is to have the service be smoother than the problem you had with the other manufacturer, if it is ever required. There is no way that anyone is going to want to send a GM2000HPS back and forth across the Atlantic if some kind of service is needed. We not only sell, we represent 10Micron in the US on this basis.

#14 orlyandico

orlyandico

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 5361
  • Joined: 10 Aug 2009
  • Loc: Singapore

Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:40 PM

So, Ed, have you had a look inside? :D

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?

#15 EFT

EFT

    Vendor - Deep Space Products

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2544
  • Joined: 07 May 2007
  • Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:05 PM

So, Ed, have you had a look inside? :D

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?


You don't take apart a mount like these just for fun and yes, the internal specifications are not for me to divulge.

#16 Raginar

Raginar

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6138
  • Joined: 19 Oct 2010
  • Loc: Rapid CIty, SD

Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:21 PM

Lol! :)

#17 Alph

Alph

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1755
  • Joined: 23 Nov 2006
  • Loc: Melmac

Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:33 PM

So, Ed, have you had a look inside? :D

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?

They are paranoid. It is amazing that they let Ed make user manuals available for download. Try to find user manuals on their website. A very weird company.

#18 orlyandico

orlyandico

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 5361
  • Joined: 10 Aug 2009
  • Loc: Singapore

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:00 PM

I'm inclined to believe it's because there's a thoroughly pedestrian off-the-shelf encoder inside. Nothing wrong with that, but it would reveal that anybody with a Renishaw, Heidenhain, or Stegmann catalog can produce an encoder mount. The magic is getting it out the door at a certain price, because throwing enough money at something will always buy better performance.

#19 EFT

EFT

    Vendor - Deep Space Products

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2544
  • Joined: 07 May 2007
  • Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:21 PM

So, Ed, have you had a look inside? :D

Can you share with the world the model number of the encoder used? or is that an NDA item?

They are paranoid. It is amazing that they let Ed make user manuals available for download. Try to find user manuals on their website. A very weird company.


Nothing paranoid about it. Some of their competitors are already taking pot shots at them. Are they expected to supply a complete parts list, specifications and design drawings for their mounts in a competitive environment when they design something that no one else if offering? I will see if maybe I can pass on some more information on the encoder, but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised? I know that many of us are curious about the inner workings of products, but besides that innate curiosity, the only reason to know some things is so that they can be passed on and copied by competitors (something that is thought to happen on a frequent basis in certain Far Eastern countries). A smart company does not always give away all its secrets. For those that really know about absolute encoders, they know that there aren't many companies out there that provide them and could probably come up with a short list of the possible suspects in this case pretty quickly.

#20 orlyandico

orlyandico

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 5361
  • Joined: 10 Aug 2009
  • Loc: Singapore

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:22 PM

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.

#21 OzAndrewJ

OzAndrewJ

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • Joined: 30 Nov 2010

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:42 PM

Gday Ed

Are they expected to supply a complete parts list,
specifications and design drawings for their mounts

I dunno that mentioning what encoder is in there would have any great effect on anything, esp in context with this thread.
People who really want to know how it works for ulterior motives would just buy one and reverse engineer it without telling anyone.
No stopping that.

but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised?

I guess part of the fun here is if in certain circumstances,
it doesnt work as advertised.
Knowing a bit more about what may cause errors is always useful.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia

#22 EFT

EFT

    Vendor - Deep Space Products

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2544
  • Joined: 07 May 2007
  • Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:53 PM

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.


"Astounded" in a good way I hope. ;)

Of course that is why you keep some things as trade secrets.

#23 EFT

EFT

    Vendor - Deep Space Products

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 2544
  • Joined: 07 May 2007
  • Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:10 AM

Gday Ed

Are they expected to supply a complete parts list,
specifications and design drawings for their mounts

I dunno that mentioning what encoder is in there would have any great effect on anything, esp in context with this thread.
People who really want to know how it works for ulterior motives would just buy one and reverse engineer it without telling anyone.
No stopping that.

but does it really matter what brand the stuff is if it works as promised?

I guess part of the fun here is if in certain circumstances,
it doesnt work as advertised.
Knowing a bit more about what may cause errors is always useful.

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia


Hey Andrew,

I don't think that mentioning the type or specification of the encoder has any meaning here, but making it available is not a decision that is up to me and a manufacturer has a right to keep confidential what it wants to. There is another manufacturer out there who posts perhaps more information on the internal guts of their mounts but then they turn around and accuse others of steeling their ideas on the basis that they made so much information public in the first place. Is that how to protect ideas? Make everything public (but not patented) and then say that no one can do anything similar or use any of the same materials without it being a copy? I don't really get that.

Certainly no way to stop someone from reverse engineering something. But at least they have to spend the money on one first. Even patents don't protect you very well on an international basis. When I was at ASAE one of the people that I work with over at one of the mass-manufacturers came over and was looking at the Avalon mounts and said that they should buy one and reverse engineer it (I probably had an interesting look on my face). But then he also admitted that they couldn't build it to match.

If something doesn't work as advertised in this level of equipment, that should not be the customer's problem to solve. That's like telling me I should fix my Volvo myself if something happens to the engine.

#24 OzAndrewJ

OzAndrewJ

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • Joined: 30 Nov 2010

Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:32 AM

Gday Ed

I don't think that mentioning the type or specification of the encoder has any meaning here


Dunno there.
After reading the original work OrlyAndico has been doing on this subject,
i for one would have been interested in his insights based on whats used.

Is that how to protect ideas? Make everything public (but not patented) and then say that no one can do anything similar or use any of the same materials without it being a copy?



In the context of the "far east" its irrelevant.
If they want to do something, they will copy what they want,
patented or not, and as long as its cheaper than local,
people will buy it.
And lets face it, thats where 99% of the new stuff is now coming from.

That's like telling me I should fix my Volvo myself if something happens to the engine.


If you owned a Volvo, then you should learn fix it yourself
as it would be too embarrasing to take it into a repairer :grin:

Andrew Johansen Melbourne Australia

#25 famax

famax

    Sputnik

  • -----
  • Posts: 49
  • Joined: 01 Jul 2007

Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:16 AM

Correct, there is no real mystery with regards to the encoders.

The only reason I'm curious is because I'm frankly astounded at the price of the 1000HPS, knowing what I do about how much absolute encoders cost.




You get the point, but still miss a thing that you obviously notice without paying attention to :
The price .
How to avoïd costly absolute encoders ?: simple : make yours...and make a pattent with it... 10microns guys have been very smart on this.
the patent is on google, just find it (i let you find the correct search terms (PM me if you are lost ...:)






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics