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Jupiter 29 Dec 1530UT

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#1 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:25 AM

Okay, there is so much going on here it'll take time to compose the write up. I'm hungry, will get on that in a minute.

Tonight was a mixed blessing, seems it always is somehow. I really just could not pull any detail out of the NEB at any magnification. I wonder if it's just bland at this CM. There was a lighter spot, hard to make out exactly. And maybe, just maybe a faint streak as shown (if you can see it on the sketch.)

The SEB was nice, but very difficult. The north, however, was just chuck full of stuff as dweller commented on. The south kind of bland, except for BA and it's trailing cloud formation.

BUT! For the first time this fly by, I finally managed to pull a slight hue out of oval BA. It was half a tick this side of very light gray, but it was there. I can only imagine the uncommonly good transparency pushed it over the edge. (Of course, the sketch is far more saturated so you can see it, too.)

Seeing was pretty stable at Ant II. Magnification was 240x with an 8mm TMB II. System I 153, System II 12.

By the way, I began observing earlier at the exact CM I sketched last night. So, while I waited in better seeing, I revisited my sketch from the night before and added a tad more detail made available with the missing Ant III of that night. That was fun.

Okay, more later...wanna really talk about contrast, magnification, and seeing. You may have noticed I am well above the recommended 30x per inch for Jupiter. But it's working and not sure why. But, I like it...it's more difficult, but worth the effort. Well, when the detail is there...

There is a fantastic festoon that rolled around much later that illustrates nicely the balance between contrast and detail. More later...still hungry. :)

Edit: Ug! Missed an oval trailing BA's belt cloud. The white spot in the NEB is a little off, but there is one about there. There is some very faint streaking in the NEB, but it's utterly bland with one rather large undulation as suspected. The north looks like Jose Antonio Soldevilla's image made yesterday. Pretty close.

Maybe that huge festoon shifted enough in the right direction since his image was taken to place it more directly over the white spot. That was difficult to lock down, anyway, and it looked like something else was there. I finally settled on a bright spot instead of a rift. In his image, there is a little of both.

Interestingly and very satisfyingly, I thought there was a lighter streak just above the darker concentration in the SEB. Can't believe I nailed that one. And the undulation along the SEB southern border is very real, too. Wow.

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#2 dweller25

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:09 AM

Wow Norme, another great observation - those festoons look so realistic.

I am hoping to do the same CM tonight but with an added IO transit in progress :D

#3 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:43 AM

David, okay, thank you. I look forward to your report. We got one more night before New Years festivities.

You know, man, I was getting worried when the NEB looked bland. It's a relief to know it kind of was...even in my skynoviewer. :lol:

One resolution is to improve both my Jupiter observations and renderings (and my pool game, too.) Drive both through that proverbial wall to the next level. Merry New Year! :)

Here's a start, well, already in progress. It's kind of a comparison of a festoon at low and high power with some contrast degradation, a little more seeing effects, and a little 'easier' resolution. Note how easy that higher contrast gap or bridge is to see at higher power. Even the festoons fall off in contrast, but they can still be seen. It just takes a little more patients and work to observe through the more noticeable slight shimmies in the atmosphere.

Still thinking about this...but it seems a nice trade off sacrificing some contrast for ease of detection. For example, that gap under the festoon can still be seen, but it can easily be missed too. Same experience with Oval BA recently. Very difficult at low 30x power inch. It could be seen, but I nearly blew out an eyeball trying. It is much easier at higher 40x power/inch even with the fall off in contrast. I never miss it. At low power, it seemed to get lost in the slight shimmies.

That gap and oval BA disappeared quite frequently with seeing at both magnifications, too, really. I think. But they are relatively high contrast. Interestingly, some very faint rifts in the NEB were barely seen at all at higher magnification and were very much susceptible to the whims of the atmosphere. You know, I doubt I would have seen them at all at lower power. I dunno, maybe, but they were incredibly thin.

It'd be like noticing a hair on a wall. Sure you can do it from across the room, but it's easier if you walk up to it. You see it better.

Hmmm...you can tell I am thinking aloud, trying to make sense of being at higher power and really seeing a little more when I probably should not be. Is this what will take observing to the next level, learning to observe Jupiter at 40x per inch?

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#4 kenrenard

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:01 AM

Norme,
Your templates are getting better and better. This sketch has some amazing detail. As David says the festoons are really there, they just look to be jumping off the globe.


I also like the fine details on the SEB.


You are really on a roll. Bravo!


Ken

#5 Chopin

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:25 AM

Norme, superb observation as always. I like that hair on the wall reference. It makes sense and has some validity. I laugh out loud every time you defend your desire to view at magnifications above the recommended norm. I'll go on record to defend you with a quick trip down memory lane. Several years back I brought the 12" dob out on a summer night. Some neighbors spotted the "water heater" and meandered over to see what was up, so to speak. The only object I recall of interest in the summer air was Jupiter, so I threw in the 13mm Stratus that I owned at the time. Those are a great series of eyepieces for public viewing. At 115x the disk was cut your finger sharp. So I moved up to the 8mm Stratus and found the image just as sharp at 187x! No wavering, no softness, just a disk of Jove etched into the background sky. So for fun I stacked the 8mm Stratus into a 3x GSO Barlow and let me tell you...WOW! It is the only time I've ever seen tendrils and mini festoons in almost every band. That's 563x and 47x per inch!!! Contrast loss be darned, it was insane to look at. I didn't sketch in those days, so the only image I have is in my memory. There might be details I'm forgetting or changing over time, so I'll have to hunt down the original observing report here in the CN archives. Anyway, my point? You have the seeing to support higher mags. Run with it. Enjoy it. Brag about it, even.

Back to the sketch, the similarity to Jose's image is striking. You even nailed that light streak in th NEB accurately. Most impressive to my eyes is that thin beige band in the EZs that you grabbed...cowabunga! ANT-II and good transparency is a dream. Glad you managed to verify the blandness of the globe after questioning yourself with such good conditions.

#6 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:32 AM

Yea, Ken, everything seems to be going right. The seeing is good, the temperatures are moderate with no cooling issues, the scope is well collimated, it is delivering the goods at higher powers, and I take the time to wait for and accumulate the finest detail on a template.

I guess that's the whole secret to observing whatever the scope can throw at you. Over an hour's time, when everything is right, the template just fills up with all sorts of detail. I feel truly blessed - gotta work for it and spend time Jonesing, but blessed nonetheless. I seriously thank God for such views. :)

It's a pleasure observing and it's made double sharing it with you.

#7 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:41 AM

Contrast loss be darned, it was insane to look at.

I am finding that to be so true.

Hey, man, my heart is warmed by your recounting a truly superior view of Jupiter. First, because you had such a view and second because you're right about contrast be damned. Well, to a point. :lol:

I am just now figuring that out and trying to understand it. Some folks joke about living the dream, I feel I am. Well, until rainy season comes around. As long as it lasts, damn the torpedoes! :)

#8 Ed D

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:26 AM

To me, magnification recommendations are like the timing recommendations for pre-computer controlled cars (remember changing points and checking timing?). They are just a guideline, not etched in stone. I like the color and sharpness offered by a lower magnification. But, sometimes I bump up the mags to get a closer look at a particular feature, such as a festoon. Sure, it's not as sharp and the color is washed out, but I can see the shapes much better. Going back to the lower mags I have a better idea of what it is I am observing and it helps me to observe more detail at the lower mags.

Norme, your sketch is awesomely detailed, as usual. You remind me of an old saying: "Beware the man with one rifle - He probably knows how to use it". In your case, that 'rifle' is your 6" MAK.

Happy New Year,
Ed D

#9 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

:lol: Thank you, Ed.

Happy New year to you and your family.

Sincerely, a guy who wants to use it tonight but clouded out. :) Er, I mean... :(

#10 azure1961p

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:48 AM

Norme ,

You are a human CCD device !

I think this is the most detail you've recorded in an observation. Those vague polar spots, serrated edges in belting and those sub level zones and such are riveting. When the detail hit , you must've been overwhelmed till you worked it out.

I'm totally onboard with the 40x per inch rule in Jupiter for the finest details in the better seeing. The "monolith" is an example I used in the past where its a point at lower powers but an actual disc subtending an angle and tone at 303x-364x. I think part of the misunderstanding had with magnifications on Jupiter is that a wildly good detailed disc can be had at 25x per inch . Its a best overall - everything is sharpest - magnification rule. What I learned is however even as contrast can pale a bit on the larger I age these threshold resolution details not afforded at 25x per inch emerge with a distinction not had previously - even though the general detail may seem muted to a point. Said in summary, it ain't as pretty but it can show more still. Its not just here though as you know, the smallest craterlets , even crater spots emerge at 40x per inch - Enckes in a 10" is almost by rule a 400x or more detail . Something's just ask for 40x of inch even if it sacrifices a little aesthetic appeal. It just breaks down the light into more clarity even though its a little paled. The best views last year of the chambered SEB was at 364x. The wavering forms of the individual wisps showed deviations from smooth forms that I swear had to be a quarter of an arc second.

I dont think its anything new with resolution - its just that jupitrvmakes such an aesthetically pleasing image at lower power the better details of the lesser attractive Jupiter are often passed over.


There's details here that are utterly amazing Norme. This is a brilliant piece!


Pete

#11 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:59 PM

Pete, early in the season we were bantering about BA's bright core and if we could see it or pick out hue in BA. At one time, I was wondering if we could see BA at all wrapped in that cloud. I nearly blew an eyeball trying. At low power it was tough and disappeared completely when the seeing rolled a bit. At higher power, it's a cinch. It still rolls, but when it pops in calm air there's no mistaking it.

What I hoped to illustrate in the festoon sketch above is how easy the festoon is to see at lower power with a bit more contrast and color saturation. But, much like BA, that gap under the festoon disappears frequently. It's so much easier when the image is larger, even though it's rolling with the seeing, too.

I need to explore that affect more. It seems high and low contrast and large and small features should respond the same at both magnifications. However, there is one effect I'm pretty sure of. The low contrast, thin extensions on those festoons are not as easy at higher power. But, the kicker is, they can still be seen, regardless. And it requires, I think, even better moments of good seeing for them to form up. Observing them seem to require more concentration and patients.

So, in a big way, it seems I am working much harder this year at higher powers than last year at lower powers. Remember my first few sketches were aptly titled, "Difficult Jupiter," etc? That's why. So, in a sense, it's overwhelming in a rewarding way.

I also find I am not taking in the whole disc as much. At lower powers when Jupiter settled down, the whole disc view was jaw dropping and etched on the retina. At higher power, I find myself focusing more on specific parts of the planet rather than the whole disc.

What I mean is, with a low power view you can kind of take in the disc and spot a feature when it pops. Now, I tend to scan the disc waiting for something to pop. Not sure that's making any sense. For example, I might just focus on the preceding portion of the NEB for a few minutes. Or I might glance at specific locations around the planet waiting to catch something out of the corner of my eye. Zip over there and focus on that spot until it's seen about as good as it can be. Repeat until finished, but not so much taking the time to take in the entire disc, anymore.

In this way, just as before, the draft sketch comes together in pieces, sometimes randomly as detail pops and sometimes due to focus on a particular region. If nothing is happening or the region is finished, scan the disc until something else catches your attention. What I am trying to say is somehow technique evolved with higher power observing, too.

With slightly lower contrast, you have to really study the area for a time to nail it down. That white spot in the NEB is a perfect example. It took half a dozen good looks before deciding it was a spot and not an indent or a rift. At lower power, it seems to just emerge as a spot and you capture it and move on. No big deal, if you saw it at all, that is. Make sense?

Sketching was easier at lower power, and it's more difficult at higher power. But it's worth it...and in that sense it's overwhelming in a rewarding way. But fewer jaw dropping whole disc vistas or etched moments due to more concerted focus on a particular region for longer is the price for those human CCD views. :lol: (Of course, all else is working very well to make that happen.) But, it's not overwhelming in a jaw dropping, etched disc sense. Not much anymore.

Yea, there is nothing new with resolution, as described with BA earlier. It can still be seen at low power. It's just "easier" resolution and not gained resolution, as I tried to show in the festoon example above. Again, it's lower contrast, but it can be seen with some patients and attention put to it. Of course, there are details that simply are too low at that power and will just be gone forever. But I am not sure what that detail is and whether or not I would have seen them at lower power, anyway. Small faint stuff? Small and faint is hard to see in any case, high or low power. Bottom line is, there is more detail to be had at higher power if conditions allow.

Sorry for rambling, again, just trying to understand this concept and doing so out loud.

#12 niteskystargazer

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:34 PM

Norme,

Nice sketch of Dec, 29th Jupiter :).

CS,KLU,

:thanx:,

Tom

#13 azure1961p

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:58 PM

I think its an acclimating kind if thing - viewing a 40x per inch Jupiter . And I can see how the gentler contrasts of a festoon may take a hit at 250x with a 6" but those micro details free up from it radiative effects and show nicer so its a fine balance. That the planet on the whole is more aesthetically pleasing at 25x per inch I think is why 40x per inch often brings about admonishing opinions. Well that and if the seeing stinks you can't get NEAR 40x per inch.

The most captivating details I see you recording now are those serrated edgings to the belts here and there - that's wild. I've seen white storms in the past but never that!!! Kudos on that Norne!!!!

Pete

#14 azure1961p

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:01 PM

You ought to do an annotated version Norme- a side by side perhaps.

Pete

#15 Ed D

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:39 PM

"I also find I am not taking in the whole disc as much. At lower powers when Jupiter settled down, the whole disc view was jaw dropping and etched on the retina. At higher power, I find myself focusing more on specific parts of the planet rather than the whole disc."

Norme, I believe this is what makes the difference between looking at a planet and observing detail on same. Since having started to include notes on my sketches, most of them include the two or three magnifications used. I bet many of us on this and the planetary forums do likewise.

Ed D

#16 Asbytec

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:47 PM

Pete, I don't know what to say. Those undulations just show themselves. Truthfully, I've not seen them before, either, that I recall. A dark border maybe, but not strong undulations like that.






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