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Tak FS60 vs Long Perng ED/"APO"

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#1 orlyandico

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:34 AM

Having sold off my cheap and cheerful guide scopes, I'm looking for a somewhat more upmarket guide scope that I can also use as an imaging refractor on my newly-acquired beat up Vixen Polaris mount (for those times when a Mach1 simply won't do!)

I've never owned any "premium" optics - my scopes have all been from AstroTech and Celestron - so I find myself tempted by the Tak FS60CB, simply because it would let me scratch my "premium scope itch," allow me to have my lightweight imaging refractor, and have a guide scope as well.

However...... the reviews state that the FS60CB has some degree of CA. I used to have a William Optics Z70ED (the old one with FPL-52) and while it did have CA on brighter stars, I really could live with it. (now why did I sell that... :tonofbricks: )

After all I won't be doing "critical" imaging with the small scope, since I'm going to be putting it on my refurbished rust-bucket Polaris. I have the AT90EDT on the Mach1 when I want to be serious.

Now if one of these ubiquitous Long Perng ED scopes are 80% to 90% of an FS60CB I would probably not scratch that premium optics itch.

So.. is the FS60CB a meaningful upgrade over say an AT72ED, to justify its over double price?

I realize one can get an Orion 80ED for $300 used, but I had an Orion 100ED, and I wouldn't wish those mechanicals on my enemies.

#2 WesC

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:43 PM

I think the Tak FS60 would only make the itch worse. For more Taks.

Not that that's a bad thing. ;)


Also you should probably add Borg to your considerations.

#3 core

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

What's wrong mechanically with the 100ED? :D fwiw I had a Vixen ED80sf for a while - I did dress the flat on the drawtube for the crayford, and never had a problem.

I have a FS-60C and AT66ED, the Tak is way ahead in terms of color correction and handling high powers (if you're into that; I've almost come to the conclusion that my secondary observational goals to is to catalog the floaters in my eyeball :D)

I've only dabbled a little with the FS-60C astrophoto-wise, using Borg components, 0.85x reducer and camera angle adjusting - was much cheaper for me (used) compared to Tak's solution. Lemme go check some of my shots again, but iirc about the outer 5% of an APS-C frame shows some FC with the Borg 0.85x reducer.

#4 andysea

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:36 PM

I use the FS-60CB with the dedicated reducer. It produces excellent images, or at least images that I am happy with.
Here is one.
https://www.flickr.c...ea/11832007774/
The CA seems to be well controlled.
BTW I think of all my scopes the FS-60 is the one that produces the best colors.

#5 rainycityastro

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:26 PM

Highly recommend you scratch that "premium optic" itch. I would suggest the Tak over your other choice. Andy's little Tak is quite a performer.
If you can handle a slightly longer FL, may I suggest an 80mm lomo triplet APO optic that has near perfect color correction and an incredibly good figure with a high 0.9x strehl? William optics/Stellarvue used these legendary lenses, I think others made them too. You will have to buy used since they are not available new anymore.
With a nice borg 7870 reducer, you are at 330mm F4.2.

Another couple of nice options: Borg 71FL/Borg 67FL with doublet fluorite objectives made by Canon Optron just like the Tak.

#6 orlyandico

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:59 PM

Ram, I have this cheap 0.6X reducer from Altair Astro which works surprisingly well on the AT90EDT so I was also planning to use it on the small scope.

The Borg 71FL is pretty expensive, my itch isn't that itchy :D it is more money than the AT90EDT.

I have seen a few of the 80mm SV's around. My concern is it would be too heavy for AP on my Vixen Polaris which is to be my no-brains grab-and-image mount.

#7 calypsob

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:31 PM

Ehh you would probably have more fun with a WO 80mm gran turismo than an over priced doublet. Yea it's a Tak, but it is really just a glorified guide scope, no offense to any fs60cb owners. If you still have the itch, then I would look around for a pentax 75 SDHF, an 80mm lomo, or even a reasonably priced TMB triplet. The SV's seem to be great, from what I have read they have some very high performance standards for their optics.

#8 andysea

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:58 PM

That's interesting, I really don't see a huge difference between the fs-60 and my other Tak scopes. It is however a very specialized scope. I bought it because I got frustrated with my Canon lenses in the 200~300 range. None of them seemed to be able to produce round stars to the corners.

#9 rainycityastro

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:05 AM

FWIW. My William optics 80mm LOMO weighs 5.1kg. This includes everything: Moonlite motorized focuser, Losmandy plate, solid rings, 7870 reducer. Even a red dot finder.

--Ram

#10 orlyandico

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:59 AM

That's pretty heavy. Not a lot lighter than my AT90EDT.

#11 chboss

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:37 AM

Orly

I would suggest to have a look at the FS-60Q with the 1.7x correction element.
This is ideal for solar imaging and guiding and if necessary the Q element can be removed. Then you can use the scope as FS-60CB for wide field imaging.
The only bad thing about Tak's are the accessory prices but they hurt your wallet only once. ;)

@calypsob
No offense but there is no comparison to the WO 90 and 110 scopes I used to own! A Tak is a TAK once you get there you will not want to go back. :smirk:

best regards
Chris

#12 orlyandico

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:13 AM

The Q is too pricey. And I don't need a long focal length for guiding, the Mach1 is pretty stable.

What I've found is that due to haze, I need more aperture on the guide scope.. which is why I moved from a 50mm finder-guider to a 60mm guide scope to an ST80.

#13 WesC

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:29 PM

Then you're back to the FS-60CB... ;)

Have you also considered the TV60 and the TV76?

#14 Kunama

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:49 PM

I use the FS-60CB with the dedicated reducer. It produces excellent images, or at least images that I am happy with.
Here is one.
https://www.flickr.c...ea/11832007774/
The CA seems to be well controlled.
BTW I think of all my scopes the FS-60 is the one that produces the best colors.


Beautiful image Andy. The FS60CB is such a great little refractor very much underrated. I had the FS60CB and the FS60Q until very recently. I have now fitted the FC76 Objective Unit to my spare FS60 Focuser.

I love the craftsmanship in these Taks, everything fits and works. The adapter systems can be a bit of a nightmare to figure out and are certainly not cheap but the system allows many configurations.

Tomorrow I am picking up the FS60's big brother ............

#15 andysea

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

Thanks Matt,
What scope are you getting?
I actually like the Takahashi system a lot. Once you figure it out there is no guesswork. Everything just works and a lot of the adapters work on different scopes. Expensive stuff but you only buy once.

#16 calypsob

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:44 PM

Orly

I would suggest to have a look at the FS-60Q with the 1.7x correction element.
This is ideal for solar imaging and guiding and if necessary the Q element can be removed. Then you can use the scope as FS-60CB for wide field imaging.
The only bad thing about Tak's are the accessory prices but they hurt your wallet only once. ;)

@calypsob
No offense but there is no comparison to the WO 90 and 110 scopes I used to own! A Tak is a TAK once you get there you will not want to go back. :smirk:

best regards
Chris


None taken, I will take your word for it. I have looked through a 150mm starfire and a 130mm TMB many times and I dont see any difference from my BM80, so my take on the TAK is just an imagined comparison. Truth be told, the starfire and tmb do not use fluorite so that may be the missing link.

#17 orlyandico

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:02 AM

I'm now leaning heavily toward a non-Lomo SV80ED.

(I can imagine the rolling eyeballs from the Tak crowd)

Like I said, I used to have a William Optics Z70ED, and the SV80ED looks to be a bit of a step up. I could do wide-field all day with the Z70ED - in fact the fellow I sold it to is having a field day imaging with it - and the CA isn't so obtrusive as to annoy me.

Would I like an SV80 Lomo? of course.. but those are hard to find. And the Tak tax seems less and less appealing the more I look at it.

#18 andysea

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:35 AM

The Lomo can be had used for a very reasonable price.
That's probably one of the best values when it comes to premium optics. I think, if you are set on an 80mm, it would be worth waiting for one of those to come up used. You will never regret buying a .9 or better strehl scope.

#19 gmartin02

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 02:45 AM

Specifically for AP, I would guess that a very well made fast fluorite doublet (like the Tak FS-60) is going to have better color correction than any well made fast FPL-51/FK-61/FCD1 ED glass doublet (like the SV80ED).

I recently sold my Orion 110mm FK-61 doublet (pretty sure it is the same rebrabnded scope as the SV110, which has the same lens design as the SV80 according to the SV website) because it had too much CA for AP for my tastes. That being said, the SV80 probably has less inherent CA than the SV110 because of the reduced aperture.

I have not had too many problems with CA with my FS-60CB for AP. It has a little bit of CA, but the CA is only prominent on DSOs when very bright stars are in the image. I think you can't do any better than the little Tak for CA out of a fast doublet. If you really want to eliminate CA from astrophotos you probably need to go to a triplet - something like the ES80 ED triplet, which is a similar price to the SV80, but probably has much better color correction.

I got my Tak FS-60CB a couple of years ago, and I consider it a "lifetime" keeper (like my Intes MK-67 Deluxe). The little Tak is like a work of art - it just oozes quality (once you go Tak, you never go back). Of course once you start adding the accessories to the Tak it can get really expensive, although the FS-60 dedicated field flattener works phenomenally well.

If I ever part with the little Tak, it would be to get funds for another Tak - possibly the TSA-102 (FPL-53 triplet), but more probably the Tak Epsilon 130D astrograph.

Here is a link to some example images from my little Tak (the most recent 3 images using a modded DSLR):

http://www.astrobin....gear&active=281

Good luck on what ever you decide to do.

#20 orlyandico

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:18 AM

I do have a triplet - an AT90EDT - which I normally use either unreduced or with an Altair Astro 0.6X reducer (which takes it down to 360mm f/4) for wide field. I really have no complaints with the AT90EDT - even the focuser is quite satisfactory, I feel no need to upgrade to a Feathertouch - except it weighs a lot (12lb for the bare scope, close to 20lb with everything).

I'm looking for a guide scope that can also serve as a grab-and-go imaging scope for non-critical imaging when I'm traveling or otherwise don't have access to my Mach1. But primarily this will be a guide scope.

This is why I'm having trouble justifying the Tak - that's quite spendy for a guide scope..... :tonofbricks: this is considering that 95% of my imaging is from my balcony, where the Mach1 sits and therefore I can use the AT90EDT without issue.

#21 terry59

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 08:02 AM

I see this the opposite. Spendy, yes if it were just a guidescope. Doing double duty as a portable scope would have me considering a Borg (lightweight and modular).

#22 Kunama

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:09 AM

Thanks Matt,
What scope are you getting?
I actually like the Takahashi system a lot. Once you figure it out there is no guesswork. Everything just works and a lot of the adapters work on different scopes. Expensive stuff but you only buy once.


I tried to break free from the grip of 'Tak'itis' by selling the TSA120, the Mewlon 210 and the FS60Q recently. Just when I was free of the affliction I weakened and bought the FC76DC. Today I had another bout of Tak'itis and bought a mint condition FS128.

#23 Erik Bakker

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:23 AM

Congratulations Matt!

Now if you could shed some light on your experience with the FS128 compared to the TSA120. Would be much appreciated.

#24 Kunama

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:35 AM

Congratulations Matt!

Now if you could shed some light on your experience with the FS128 compared to the TSA120. Would be much appreciated.


Hi Erik and thanks, I will take a few weeks as I now have to get another mount to hold this beast. The FS128, although 13 years old, is in as new condition. I will be setting it up with Denkmeier Denk II binos and some Panoptics & Pentax XFs.

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#25 orlyandico

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:18 AM

it's now time for me to bow out of this discussion :)

the $350 SV80ED is just impossible to resist, since it will live 95% of the time as a guide scope. I'll just tolerate the CA when I - rarely - use it as an imaging scope.






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