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I just bagged M5, M4, and M13 in my 25x70.

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#1 stargazer193857

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:43 AM

I used Stellarium to locate them, then went out to view from the porch. I used a tree and a fence to shield myself from the neighbor's lights.

When I saw M5, I thought I was looking at the Sculpter galaxy. The claw of Scorpio looked like the triangle of Sculpter. But Stellarium set me straight on that.

M5 and M4 both benefited from averted vision. M13 was a solid direct vision target, though I could not resolve any stars.

It was probably a bit windy outside for my light weight telescope. That is why I opted for binoculars.

#2 Man in a Tub

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 03:29 AM

I used Stellarium to locate them, then went out to view from the porch. I used a tree and a fence to shield myself from the neighbor's lights.

When I saw M5, I thought I was looking at the Sculpter galaxy. The claw of Scorpio looked like the triangle of Sculpter. But Stellarium set me straight on that.


What, or should I ask whose, version of Stellarium do you have?

M5 in Scorpius? M5 is located in Serpens Caput and doesn't require averted vision. Possibly you mean M80. (I hope your Stellarium version displays M13 in Hercules.)

Otherwise, good going there. Do target open clusters M6, the Butterfly Cluster, and M7, Ptolemy's Cluster, also in Scorpius.

Clear skies,

#3 edwincjones

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:51 AM

with dark enough skies, you should be able to get all the Ms

edj

#4 Tony Flanders

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 06:47 AM

with dark enough skies, you should be able to get all the Ms.


Indeed -- almost all the Messier objects are very easy to see in 15x70 binoculars under dark skies. And all are visible through 10x50s, though that requires more effort.

#5 stargazer193857

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:15 AM

I did not say M5 required averted vision. I said it benefited from averted vision, meaning it got noticeably brighter. M13 looked equally bright both ways, and was better with direct vision because that is where I have my high resolution vision.

That may very well be true about the dark skies, though it also matters very much how clear the skies are. Even if you can see a DSO, it will look much better if you have good seeing. The northern skies are bad in both respects.

As for seeing everything in a 15x70 from a dark sky, there were many M objects I could not see in the 24" observatory telescope even with averted vision at 100x in Bortle orange/red skies. It has very fine GoTo and tracking and calibration. I even panned around the area.

Neither I nor my partner could see the spiral in M51 with the 24" observatory telescope in a Bortle orange/red area. Even the head astronomer said it is not possible. I could just barely make out the twin cores with averted vision.

A 10" at a Bortle yellow sky could show the outline of the M51 disk, but no spiral. The other members of my club have much better astronomy vision than I do, and they could not see the spiral either. They said a 20" does an excellent job, though I heard a 16" at a dark sky site can show the spiral too.

#6 stargazer193857

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:18 AM

with dark enough skies, you should be able to get all the Ms.


Indeed -- almost all the Messier objects are very easy to see in 15x70 binoculars under dark skies. And all are visible through 10x50s, though that requires more effort.


Depends what you count as visible. If just seeing the central core as a faint dot is good enough, and knowing what it is because you know the location, then yes. If you want to see enough detail so you could identify the type of object from its appearance without having to consult a star map, then I doubt it.

#7 Tony Flanders

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:18 AM

Almost all the Messier objects are very easy to see in 15x70 binoculars under dark skies. And all are visible through 10x50s, though that requires more effort.


Depends what you count as visible. If just seeing the central core as a faint dot is good enough, and knowing what it is because you know the location, then yes. If you want to see enough detail so you could identify the type of object from its appearance without having to consult a star map, then I doubt it.


Good point. Identifying the object type is asking a lot; it's easy to confuse galaxies with globular clusters (and sometimes planetary nebulae) even in much bigger instruments. But through 10x50 binoculars, a few of the Messier objects are extremely hard to distinguish from stars, notably M57. And I've never split M40 at 10X. M73 tends to look just as Messier saw it -- like a tiny, faint smudge.

It's way easier to tell that all the Messier objects are nonstellar in 15X binoculars.

#8 pepit

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

I did not say M5 required averted vision. I said it benefited from averted vision, meaning it got noticeably brighter. M13 looked equally bright both ways, and was better with direct vision because that is where I have my high resolution vision.

That may very well be true about the dark skies, though it also matters very much how clear the skies are. Even if you can see a DSO, it will look much better if you have good seeing. The northern skies are bad in both respects.

As for seeing everything in a 15x70 from a dark sky, there were many M objects I could not see in the 24" observatory telescope even with averted vision at 100x in Bortle orange/red skies. It has very fine GoTo and tracking and calibration. I even panned around the area.

Neither I nor my partner could see the spiral in M51 with the 24" observatory telescope in a Bortle orange/red area. Even the head astronomer said it is not possible. I could just barely make out the twin cores with averted vision.

A 10" at a Bortle yellow sky could show the outline of the M51 disk, but no spiral. The other members of my club have much better astronomy vision than I do, and they could not see the spiral either. They said a 20" does an excellent job, though I heard a 16" at a dark sky site can show the spiral too.

An aperture as small as 8 inches can reveal spirals, and I have seen it's spiral arms with a 10 inch from dark skies.
Honestly, I think dark skies matter more than aperture for resolving detail in galaxies.
Btw, nice find! :D

#9 John_G

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:26 PM

I've seen a lot of them but I find some of the galaxies in Vir and CVn tough. I'll need to get to a very dark sky and try. I had a great look a the Owl and M108 last weekend.

#10 Tony Flanders

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 04:04 AM

There were many M objects I could not see in the 24" observatory telescope even with averted vision at 100x in Bortle orange/red skies. It has very fine GoTo and tracking and calibration. I even panned around the area.


This surprises me greatly.

Go To is irrelevant; either you're in the right spot or you're not. Whether you get there by Go To or star-hopping makes no difference. Except that if you star-hop, you're certain that you're looking the right way, whereas with Go To you have to take it on faith.

I don't know if your problems are due entirely to inexperience or whether you have abnormally poor night vision (it does happen) or whether that red/orange rating is wildly incorrect. Did you get it from the original Light Pollution Atlas or David Lorenz's more up-to-date version?

I can see all of the Messier objects easily in the red zone through my 7-inch scope. Not challenging at all. And I think most newbies would have no trouble seeing them through a 24-inch, except possibly a handful of the faintest galaxies.






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