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Not having fun trying to process images.

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#1 tim57064

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:32 PM

The weather isn't so great so I thought I would try my hand at processing my latest imaging attempts. Earlier today I made an attempt to post a new topic and of course it was right before,a second before CN was shut down for updates and what I was trying to post never made it. 

So I thought I would give a shot a attempting to process M31 that I had captured on 7/31/14. I was using StarTools and wasn't getting satisfactory results yet was just about ready to finish with the attempt and StarTools shut down,leaving me with nothing. 

So what I think I might do now is try what I was attempting to do earlier today and post the DSS stacked images hoping it works this time. 

https://www.dropbox....DROMEDA M31.TIF

If anyone would like,I would appreciate attemps at processing with what ever you use,be it StarTools ,PI or what ever.

Here is a link to my astrobin work in process. It is just the stacked in DSS images.21 guided images @  800 ISO, 180" with Bias and Flats,no Darks. 

https://astrob.in/111665/0/

I used my Canon T4I on my 80ED with my Orion Field Flattener and  Atlas EQG mount.  

 Any and all comments and criticism would be appreciated and if any wants,please process and post your workflow here.

Thanks, Tim


Edited by tim57064, 05 August 2014 - 04:45 PM.


#2 tim57064

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:38 PM

Well it does not appear that the image I was trying to attach to the original post went thru. Lets see if this works.

Attached File  sized_DSS ANDROMEDA M31.JPG   199.17KB   0 downloads



#3 tim57064

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:41 PM

I remember another thing I was curious about when I made the attempt at posting earlier today. 

Why does the image look so much better in DSS prior to saving the file? You can see a lot more detail in the image?



#4 mdowns

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:02 PM

I really do'nt do any astro photgraphy,just basic afocal stuff. But thought I'd take a stab enhancing the contrast.I'd be really surprised if someone did'nt come in and make it a real treat!

Attached Files



#5 17.5Dob

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:22 PM

This is what I got from your drop-box TIFF in just a quick and dirty stretch or two.

 

14839188682_e6eda3fb47_c.jpg


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#6 terry59

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:36 PM

Nice data Tim



#7 tim57064

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:19 PM

mdowns,thanks for taking a look.

 

17.5 ,That stretch or 2 still made it look much better. Thanks for your reply and shot at it.

 

Thanks terry59. Now if only I can get processing thing down that will work.



#8 ManicSponge

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:49 PM

Tim,

 Here's my attempt with PSP6. Levels, Curves, and Smart photo fix were used. I ran it through Noiseware community edition, also. Looks like some good data in there, I'm just not all that good at dragging it out yet. Hopefully, someone more experienced will have a go at this.

Regards, KyleAttached File  Andromeda.jpg   214.6KB   2 downloads


Edited by ManicSponge, 05 August 2014 - 06:50 PM.


#9 tim57064

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:04 PM

Kyle, Thanks for giving it a shot. Looks much better than what I had come up with so far.

I've tried StarTools,not so much luck there since it shut down on me,Elements 12 and now I have it in PI trial version, yet that is even more confusing since I have never tried it. Even confusing there trying to crop out the stacking artifacts.



#10 anismo

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:23 PM

If you have the PI trial version, I highly recommend following lightvortexastronomy tutorials. It did wonders for me when I was starting out . For example: http://lightvortexas...pixinsight.html



#11 tim57064

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:36 PM

Anis,Thanks for the link. I am at the Dynamic Background Extraction Tool. In there what you are trying to do is eliminate the red X's that are showing in the image? I had to go to 1.900 in the Tolerance Parameter before I got 2 Red X's. Any lower or higher and there were more. Is this acceptable?

Edit: I went ahead and reset the tool and found that setting to the 1.900 in the Tolerance parameter I found 0 Red X's ,so,so far so good I guess.


Edited by tim57064, 05 August 2014 - 08:54 PM.


#12 anismo

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:04 PM

DBE is trial and error. What I normally do is, I set the tolerance to 2.0 and correction to "Subtraction" and generate the points. Add manually points to the edge and move/remove points that are on bright structures/stars and extract. The DBE'd image will be linear and hit Ctrl+0 to do an auto stretch to see how it turned out. You might have to move the points around if you see dark spots (typically it is because you have a sample point on a bright star).   You can save the DBE by dragging the little triangle icon on the bottom of the DBE dialog and drop it on the work space. It will create an icon with the current settings of the DBE. Close DBE dialog.

 

On the DBE'ed image, Double click the  saved DBE icon and it will show the sample with the old value. change tolerance to 1.0, Smoothing factor to 0.1, hit "resize" and then do DBE again.

 

Repeat this with lower tolerance and smoothing factor until you are happy.   As you start using it more and more, you will get a good feel for what works and what doesnt.

 

The Lightvortexastronomy flow doesnt have an important processing step.. namely deconvolution. Once you get comfortable, Deconvolution would be something you want to learn as well.

 

 

My Typical flow is

 

In LINEAR STATE

 

1. Dynamic crop to crop the the edges and unwanted junk

2. DBE to remove uneven background

3. For Color images only: Background neutralization

4. For Color images only: Color calibration followed by SCNR to remove green tint

5.  Deconvolution

6. Noise reduction  (I use AtrousWavelet Transform and Multiscale Median transform)

7. For Color images only: With a starmask, , increase the saturation of stars with curvesTrasnformation (This was a great tip from Madratter)

8. Histogram Transformation to do the initial stretch

 

In NON Linear state

9. Depending on the subject type, Do more noise reduction using AtrousWavelets, Multiscale Median , ACDNR, TGVDenoise) I have found that less is more and just use AtrousWavelets

10. Do more Histogram Transform to stretch more after noise reduction

11. HDR Transform If you feel that certain portion of the image is blown out

12. Local Histogram Equalization if you want to recover some of the brightness

13. Curves Transformation

 

 

One popular technique with Color image is to first extract Luminance layer and process Luminance and color separately (using the same step listed above). But once the color image is processed, it is blurred (using AtrousWavelets) and combined back with the processed Luminance. 

 

Basically using the keywords listed in the flow, you would want to google and get the specific setting (Lightvortexastronomy site itself has most of it)


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#13 Jeff2011

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 11:11 PM

This is my effort using StarTools.  There was a massive amount of hot pixels.  I recommend taking darks in addition to dithering. You have good signal in this image.

 

The following is my StarTools log showing the process flow with annotations I added for masking used.  I also added a screen cap of the settings I used to mask off the hot pixels.  You may have to unselect some mask pixels in the brights stars and M33.

-----------------------------------------------------------
StarTools 1.3.5.289
Tue Aug 05 21:34:30 2014
-----------------------------------------------------------
File loaded [C:\Documents and Settings\Compaq_Administrator\My Documents\Downloads\DSS ANDROMEDA M31.TIF].
--- 
--- Bin
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 35.38%)/(798.89%)/(+3.00 bits)]
--- Auto Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail <] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside ROI Influence] set to [15 %]
--- Crop
Parameter [X1] set to [22 pixels]
Parameter [Y1] set to [10 pixels]
Parameter [X2] set to [1839 pixels (-3)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [1209 pixels (-20)]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [3.0 pixels]
--- Develop
Parameter [White Calibration] set to [Use Stars]
Parameter [Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Skyglow] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Digital Development] set to [86.39 %]
Parameter [Blue Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Green Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Red Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Headroom] set to [5 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [13.1 pixels]
--- Wipe
++++ Annotation: Mask Galaxy and then invert mask so wipe does not touch galaxy 
Parameter [Mode] set to [Correct Color & Brightness]
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Precision] set to [256 x 256 pixels]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [4 pixels]
Parameter [Drop Off Point] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Corner Aggressiveness] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Aggressiveness] set to [53 %]
--- Develop
Parameter [White Calibration] set to [Use Stars]
Parameter [Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Skyglow] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Digital Development] set to [92.53 %]
Parameter [Blue Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Green Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Red Luminance Contrib.] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Headroom] set to [5 %]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [7.3 pixels]
--- Deconvolution
++++ Annotation: Use the automatic mask to mask off stars
Parameter [Image Type] set to [Deep Space]
Parameter [Mask Behavior] set to [De-ring Mask Gaps, Hide Result]
Parameter [Radius] set to [1.4 pixels]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [10]
Parameter [Regularization] set to [1.01 (smoother, less detail)]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet Sharpen
++++ Annotation: Use same mask as decon for sharpen
Parameter [Intelligent Enhance] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [96 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [86 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [86 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [72 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [49 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [8.0 pixels]
Parameter [Amount] set to [150 %]
Parameter [Small Detail Bias] set to [87 %]
--- HDR
Parameter [Small Detail Precision] set to [Max]
Parameter [Channels] set to [Brightness Only]
Parameter [Algorithm] set to [Reveal DSO Core]
Parameter [Dark/Bright Response] set to [0.69]
Parameter [Detail Size Range] set to [64 pixels]
Parameter [Noise Suppression] set to [Off]
--- Color
++++ Annotation: Clear mask and then invert to mask all
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [To Yellow]
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Style] set to [Scientific (Color Constancy)]
Parameter [LRGB Method Emulation] set to [Straight CIELab Luminance Retention]
Parameter [Dark Saturation] set to [2.00]
Parameter [Bright Saturation] set to [Full]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [200 %]
Parameter [Blue Bias Reduce] set to [1.33]
Parameter [Green Bias Reduce] set to [1.01]
Parameter [Red Bias Reduce] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [90 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 pixels]
Parameter [Scale Correlation] set to [2]
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [12 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [12 %]
Parameter [Grain Size] set to [3.7 pixels]
Parameter [Read Noise Compensation] set to [8.42 %]
Parameter [Smoothness] set to [51 %]
--- Heal   
++++ Annotation: Create mask for hot pixels - go to auto and then select hot pixels, tweak sliders until mostly hot pixels selected
Parameter [Quality] set to [Medium]
Parameter [New Darker Than Old] set to [No]
Parameter [Grow Mask] set to [0 pixels]
Parameter [Neighbourhood Samples] set to [0]
Parameter [New Must Be Darker Than] set to [Off]
Parameter [Neighbourhood Area] set to [200 pixels]
File saved [C:\Documents and Settings\Compaq_Administrator\My Documents\JeffsStax\M31.tiff].
 

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by Jeff2011, 05 August 2014 - 11:24 PM.


#14 tim57064

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:30 AM

DBE is trial and error. What I normally do is, I set the tolerance to 2.0 and correction to "Subtraction" and generate the points. Add manually points to the edge and move/remove points that are on bright structures/stars and extract. The DBE'd image will be linear and hit Ctrl+0 to do an auto stretch to see how it turned out. You might have to move the points around if you see dark spots (typically it is because you have a sample point on a bright star).   You can save the DBE by dragging the little triangle icon on the bottom of the DBE dialog and drop it on the work space. It will create an icon with the current settings of the DBE. Close DBE dialog.

 

On the DBE'ed image, Double click the  saved DBE icon and it will show the sample with the old value. change tolerance to 1.0, Smoothing factor to 0.1, hit "resize" and then do DBE again.

 

Repeat this with lower tolerance and smoothing factor until you are happy.   As you start using it more and more, you will get a good feel for what works and what doesnt.

 

The Lightvortexastronomy flow doesnt have an important processing step.. namely deconvolution. Once you get comfortable, Deconvolution would be something you want to learn as well.

 

 

My Typical flow is

 

In LINEAR STATE

 

1. Dynamic crop to crop the the edges and unwanted junk

2. DBE to remove uneven background

3. For Color images only: Background neutralization

4. For Color images only: Color calibration followed by SCNR to remove green tint

5.  Deconvolution

6. Noise reduction  (I use AtrousWavelet Transform and Multiscale Median transform)

7. For Color images only: With a starmask, , increase the saturation of stars with curvesTrasnformation (This was a great tip from Madratter)

8. Histogram Transformation to do the initial stretch

 

In NON Linear state

9. Depending on the subject type, Do more noise reduction using AtrousWavelets, Multiscale Median , ACDNR, TGVDenoise) I have found that less is more and just use AtrousWavelets

10. Do more Histogram Transform to stretch more after noise reduction

11. HDR Transform If you feel that certain portion of the image is blown out

12. Local Histogram Equalization if you want to recover some of the brightness

13. Curves Transformation

 

 

One popular technique with Color image is to first extract Luminance layer and process Luminance and color separately (using the same step listed above). But once the color image is processed, it is blurred (using AtrousWavelets) and combined back with the processed Luminance. 

 

Basically using the keywords listed in the flow, you would want to google and get the specific setting (Lightvortexastronomy site itself has most of it)

Anis,Thank you very much for your replies and assistance. I started and now finished an attempt to process the image using the lightvortexas link you providedand am going to place it on here as soon as I finish with these repies. Thanks



#15 tim57064

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:35 AM

Jeff2011,I like very much what you did in processing the image. I am going to keep the work flow you wrote up and give StarTools another shot sometime. Thank you so much for taking the time to show me what you came up with.



#16 tim57064

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:46 AM

Okay,this is what I came up with using PI trial version. I have to say,Man this took a while and not sure how others will feel about how it looks so I would still appreciate anyone else taking on the challenge I put forth here. 

 

https://www.dropbox....DROMEDA M31.TIF

 

http://astrob.in/111773/0/

 

Already I can tell that the stars are bloated and am not quite sure how to remedy?

Comments and criticisms will be very much appreciated. Thanks

Attached Files


Edited by tim57064, 06 August 2014 - 01:51 AM.


#17 terry59

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:24 AM

I think that you are off to a good start Tim.



#18 Madratter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:53 AM

Here is a quick process of it in PixInsight. The data is pretty good but could definitely benefit from more integration time.

 

Attached File  TimM31.jpg   194.01KB   0 downloads

 

Steps taken:

 

Crop

DynamicBackgroundExtraction

AutomaticBackgroundExtraction (with very tight parameters to avoid sampling M31)

ColorCalibration

CurvesTransformation (Saturation) using a mask created from extracted L.

ColorCalibration

HistogramTransformation

TGVDenoise

HistogramTransformation

SCNR (Green)

CurvesTransformation

HistogramTransformation

Resample (for Cloudy Nights)


Edited by Madratter, 06 August 2014 - 08:01 AM.


#19 tim57064

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:08 AM

Thanks for the encouragement Terry.

 

MR, Now that is what I am talking about. I have no idea what I did wrong ,yet my example looks nothing like that.  :waytogo:  :like:


Edited by tim57064, 06 August 2014 - 11:08 AM.


#20 anismo

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:28 PM

You have good data. So half the battle is over :)

 

With these processing tools (I have been using PI but applies to others)  you will be able to reprocess the data again and again as you learn more technique. I have stashed away my subs for rainy day :)



#21 David Ault

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:09 PM

It's very nice data.  There is a bit a noise but as others have said some additional integration time will help that.

 

Here's my attempt:
M31.jpg

 

This was done with PixInsight.  Here's what I did:

- DynamicBackgroundExtraction

- Color balance using BackgroundNeutralization and ColorCalibration
- Initial denoise using TGVDenoise and a light mask (extracted luminance and used STF do define the stretch for the mask)

- HistogramTransformation to get the initial stretch.  Given the amount of noise in the image I kept the overall stretch low.

- HDRMultiscaleTransform to reduce the brightness of the core and expose a bit more detail there

- LocalHistographEqualization to increase the contrast in some of the structure sizes

- I did some curves adjustment to change the overall contrast a bit

- Additional noise reduction using TGVDenoise and MultiscaleMedianTransform

- Some more curves adjustments.  Usually at this point any adjustments to the histogram are very minor.

- Saturation boost

- Another color balance.  I usually re-balance the color after changes in saturation.

- Another pass of DBE to catch some variations that are more evident after all the stretching

- Final curve adjustment.  One last small tweak.

- Resize for the fourm



#22 tim57064

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:26 PM

Anis,Thanks again for your reply. Yeah going to revisit this a number of times and try to keep adding to it.

 

David Ault,  I really like what you have done with the processing. Thanks for taking a shot at it and leaving your work flow.Noise is to be expected with the DSLR.

I stopped using Darks yet am wondering if maybe I should try going back to using them or if just adding more integration time would take care of that.



#23 anismo

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:44 PM

Do you Dither ? A good amount of dithering (If you are using BYEOS or SGP, both can dither with PHD/PHD2) will do wonders in removing noise.

 

Medium or High dither + Winsorized Sigma clipping noise rejection during stacking will take care of a lot of fixed noise.  I would skip getting darks now (unless you have very good way to match temperature with the existing subs). 

 

For DSLR, I have just used Flats and dithering for good results.



#24 tim57064

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:54 PM

Do you Dither ? A good amount of dithering (If you are using BYEOS or SGP, both can dither with PHD/PHD2) will do wonders in removing noise.

 

Medium or High dither + Winsorized Sigma clipping noise rejection during stacking will take care of a lot of fixed noise.  I would skip getting darks now (unless you have very good way to match temperature with the existing subs). 

 

For DSLR, I have just used Flats and dithering for good results.

Anis,Yes dithering is set when numerous images are being taken.Thanks for your inquiry. I have not used Winsorized Sigma during staking.



#25 TimN

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:03 PM

Tim, a couple of things. First, I find that extreme dithering works the best regardless of which scope I use. Also, its my understanding, that in DSS you should use Kappa Sigma or Medium Kappa Sigma to take advantage of dithering. In PI, Winsorized Sigma seem to give the best results.

 

 Regarding processing, I have seen great results from PS, PI and StarTools. If one has the money and the time the best answer is to learn and use all 3. However, with PS's current method of monthly charges, many people who don't already own PS are looking for other alternatives. PI seems to be the most popular of the "newer" solutions. StarTools is even newer than PI and also has its followers. I have used all 3 - PS,PI and ST - and I now mainly use StarTools. StarTools makes it fairly easy to get a reasonable image quickly. This is its strength and weakness. People will often get a quick image with StarTools, using its defaults, and then spend hours and get a better image with PI. They then assume that StarTools is good for beginners but as one advances you should move to PI. I think if they devoted half as much time to learning ST as they do to PI they would realize more of its abilities.

 

So, am I recommending you stay with StarTools. No, ST and PI both have different strengths and weaknesses. The stacking in PI is much superior than using DSS for ST. I find that using PI is like using a low level language. I programmed in Basic Assembler for years and loved its control over every byte. When I learned higher level languages I found I lost some control but gained consistency and speed. St reminds me of a language consisting mainly of macros. Each have their advantages. This is a hobby and we are supposed to have fun. So, I recommend you learn both fairly well and use the one that you enjoy more and gives you the best results. Sometimes you can and should use both together. We spend lots of money and time on our equipment and less of each on processing. So, buying and learning these 2 systems is a worth while investment IMO.








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