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Takahashi TSA-120 or TOA-130

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#101 sabir

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 07:11 PM

Thanks Matt!

 

I've been going crazy trying to decide between the Zeiss T-2 Prism and the 2" Baader Maxbright (Max-2) which has a 140 Layer dielectric coated Sitall mirror.  

 

I have been unable to find any reviews of the Baader Max-2 and how it compares to other top tier diagonals. Bill P's awesome review of diagonals has me leaning towards the T-2 Zeiss but that review did not include the Baader Max-2. If the Max-2 outperforms (scatters less) than the AP Maxbright, I am guessing it would be pretty darn close to the Zeiss T-2...

 

I haven't pulled the trigger as yet on the Zeiss T-2 as I think the TSA-120 at f/7.5 is right on the edge when it comes to using prism diagonals? You noticing slight color at f/7.7 sends me back to the drawing board!  :lol:

 

Sabir



#102 WesC

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 08:32 PM

By reading that article, I would surmise that any top quality prism diagonal would have less scatter than a mirror diagonal of comparable quality. Also they noted that there was no false color observed until they fell below f/7... so I think the f/7.5 of the TSA-120 would be fine. I suspect that the color he is detecting is more likely from a combination of the binoviewer and the eyepieces. Sometimes there's just no getting away from it!

 

I myself have the Baader Click-Lock dielectric diagonal and am extremely happy with it.... but I do love looking at Jupiter and really want to try that T2 Zeiss Prism diagonal. I may have to get one of those too... configured, of course, with a Clik-Lock!



#103 Derek Wong

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 09:05 PM

Hi guys:

 

The appearance of color is dependent on the scope design as well as the f-ratio, as Bill details in his article.  Zeiss scopes are designed for an M44 or M42 prism, and their best color correction will only be with the extra glass in the pathway.  Several other scopes also benefit from the prism.  I am not a Tak expert, but several of the ones I have seen are corrected for straight through viewing, and a prism may add color even at slower ratios than f/7.

 

With the binoviewer there is already more scatter, so the difference between the dielectric and prism is likely to be reduced other than for color.  The only way to really tell is to try both, but I suspect you will get excellent views with either one.  I use the prism because the dielectric wasn't available when I bought my binoviewer.  One way to make better views is to use a barlow before the prism diagonal.  This has several benefits, including reduced color from the diagonal, the ability to use more comfortable longer focal length eyepieces, and reduced aberrations.

 

Derek



#104 Kunama

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:14 PM

Hi guys:

 

The appearance of color is dependent on the scope design as well as the f-ratio, as Bill details in his article.  Zeiss scopes are designed for an M44 or M42 prism, and their best color correction will only be with the extra glass in the pathway.  Several other scopes also benefit from the prism.  I am not a Tak expert, but several of the ones I have seen are corrected for straight through viewing, and a prism may add color even at slower ratios than f/7.

 

With the binoviewer there is already more scatter, so the difference between the dielectric and prism is likely to be reduced other than for color.  The only way to really tell is to try both, but I suspect you will get excellent views with either one.  I use the prism because the dielectric wasn't available when I bought my binoviewer.  One way to make better views is to use a barlow before the prism diagonal.  This has several benefits, including reduced color from the diagonal, the ability to use more comfortable longer focal length eyepieces, and reduced aberrations.

 

Derek

As I mentioned we are now splitting hairs,  the amount of colour is very small and certainly not enough to change my mind about the Zeiss Prism, when I take the binoviewer and the Televue eyepieces out of the equation the views are as pristine as I have seen. 

 

@Sabir,  I wouldn't go back to the drawing board based on my experiences, don't forget I had the Baader Maxbrights and Televue Radian & Plossls in the equation as well.  The original reason for me getting the Zeiss prism was to shorten the light path of my previous scopes but the TOA 130 has so much back focus I could use a 2" mirror diag and still get to native with the binos.  With the Zeiss T2 prism I am still using a 50mm extension tube else I would not get focus in mono mode.

 

The next step for me will be the 2" Zeiss Prism for the TOA and then the Zeiss T2 prism can do duty on the FC76DCSV (which the postie should be bringing to me tomorrow !!!!! )


Edited by Kunama, 24 March 2015 - 11:30 PM.

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#105 sabir

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 08:36 AM

Thanks Matt... I think I'll be giving the T-2 Zeiss a try...

 

The 2" Zeiss prism is interesting. I ruled it out for the TSA-120 as the amount of glass is considerably more than the smaller T-2. Bill P's diagonal review also rated the T-2 Zeiss over the 2" Zeiss for both scatter and spurious color.

 

Interestingly, Baader's website says the following: This product is presently not available. A new and better product is in preparation. New date of delivery approximately june 2015.

 

http://www.baader-pl...ion/s28/s28.htm

 

Hmmmm.... "Better Product".... now that sounds interesting. Bill P better be gearing up for another diagonal shootout!  :lol:

 

Sabir


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#106 WesC

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:49 PM

The suspense!!!!! :eyecrazy:



#107 Peter Besenbruch

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 03:14 PM

...but I do love looking at Jupiter and really want to try that T2 Zeiss Prism diagonal. I may have to get one of those too... configured, of course, with a Clik-Lock!

 

Of course! ;)



#108 Kunama

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 03:30 PM

@Wes,

I found the Baader 2" ClickLock to be excellent and would not have changed to the prism were it not for the length of the light path being critical in the binoviewers.

Perhaps before spending your money, try to find someone with the Zeiss prism nearby that you can try.  Overall I think even Bill P would admit we are talking about small differences in these top-shelf diagonals.  Sometimes the differences are seen only when using them side by side.


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#109 WesC

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 05:23 PM

Yeah finding someone to borrow it from is definitely what I had in mind!



#110 olivdeso

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 06:55 PM

The TOA130 front coating seems to be very fragile.

 

There are several samples that have the same problem. A friend of mine experienced exactly the same problem as these 2 other samples.  Very expensive to get it fixed, about 2800 usd.

May be there is only one defective batch with too soft coating, I don't known... but this is not the first time I see this issue...

 

http://www.astrosurf...TML/041207.html

 

http://www.astromart...ified_id=854047

 

edit : 

 

my friend lens:

 

http://www.webastro....-1427414692.jpg

 

another one having the same issue (seen on Tak uncensored group) :

 

http://farm9.staticf...440c6c1f2_o.jpg


Edited by olivdeso, 26 March 2015 - 09:23 PM.


#111 edif300

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 03:31 AM

Send me your the Traveler oil leaking semiapo and will demostrated you how soft coating it has. I will make for you a careful job based in the coating's friends.



#112 Erik Bakker

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 04:26 AM

I've seen a TOA150 with a very similar looking damaged coating on the front element too. That was about 7 years ago. Don't know if it was caused by coating issues or user error (not cleaning when necessary). Looked ugly though. Some airborn stuff can be very damaging to coatings and must be cleaned off ASAP. "Untouched" lenses in years old refractors is not necessarily a good thing. Nor is excessive cleaning. Never had any coating problems with any of my Zeiss/A-P/Tak refractors, even after decades of use and timely cleaning. The glass always looked as new after a careful cleaning job.


Edited by Erik Bakker, 27 March 2015 - 04:27 AM.


#113 roadi

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:56 AM

The TOA130 front coating seems to be very fragile.

 

There are several samples that have the same problem. A friend of mine experienced exactly the same problem as these 2 other samples.  Very expensive to get it fixed, about 2800 usd.

May be there is only one defective batch with too soft coating, I don't known... but this is not the first time I see this issue...

 

http://www.astrosurf...TML/041207.html

 

http://www.astromart...ified_id=854047

 

edit : 

 

my friend lens:

 

http://www.webastro....-1427414692.jpg

 

another one having the same issue (seen on Tak uncensored group) :

 

http://farm9.staticf...440c6c1f2_o.jpg

Looks like a manufacturing issue!! The TOA's are relatively new and so many serious coating issues allready doesn't seem to be a user related issue IMO.


Edited by roadi, 27 March 2015 - 08:57 AM.


#114 edif300

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:52 AM


Looks like a manufacturing issue!! The TOA's are relatively new and so many serious coating issues allready doesn't seem to be a user related issue IMO.

 

 

There is nothing relatively new in TOA/TSA/FSQ. TOAs are in production since 2003... more years than your doublet FS-128.

 

As olivdeso perfectly knows, Rémi Petitdemange is a technician at Takahashi Europe. I will copy/paste answers of Mr. Petitdemange at the link cited above by olivdeso:

 

"""""""

Salut,
Ton post devrait contribuer à faire avancer les choses sur ce pb critique
auprès de Taka.
On pense et on suggère des solutions à moindre cout après ce fait accompli :
Altération prématurée du traitement de la 1ere surface optique côté ciel
sans altération mécanique provoquée par un nettoyage inadapté.
La TOA-130 est sortie en 2003 et quelques centaines d'exemplaires
sont sur le terrain un peu partout là où l'astro se pratique avec de tels instruments.
Trouver des solutions équitables n'est ni simple ni rapide mais on y travaille.
A+
Rémi

"""""""""""

 

 

"""""""""""

Fred : l'acétone (ou le canon pour tuer la mouche)
est à éviter absolument sur les traitements TOA/FSQ/TSA.
Les préconisations sont soit l'eau déminéralisée
soit, en dernier recours, le Purosol.
Tamponnages avec micros fibres très humectées.
Puis frottements selon les rayons direction bord vers centre.
Enfin finition avec à la buée du souffle sans postillonner.
A+
Rémi

"""""""""""

 

 

PS: Recomended reading: pag21 from TOA-130N instruction manual and pag22 from TOA150B instruction manual.



#115 WesC

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:28 AM

That looks like mineral etching from hard/sea water. I've seen it before on a pair of binoculars that were used on a naval vessel. 

 

The previous owner of my TSA-120 lives in a dusty western part of Texas, and frankly must have never cleaned the objective. It was right filthy! I was pretty concerned buying the scope. But when I got it, I spent a few minutes carefully working with a bulb brush and a blower, Kimwipes and a 50/50 mix of distiller water and 95% isopropyl alcohol... and the lens looks brand spanking new. No sleeks, no spots, no coating damage whatsoever! I was relieved! 

 

Did these damaged TOAs display the problem inside the 5-year warranty period?



#116 roadi

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:52 AM

 


Looks like a manufacturing issue!! The TOA's are relatively new and so many serious coating issues allready doesn't seem to be a user related issue IMO.

 

 

There is nothing relatively new in TOA/TSA/FSQ. TOAs are in production since 2003... more years than your doublet FS-128.

 

 


 

How do you know about that? or do you happend to know the seriel nr on my FS?  and the TOA's involved? I didn't specificaly talk about my FS either but more so of refractors as a whole! Talking about Takahashi only, theres a lot of FC's, FCT's around which are made long before your TOA as are a lot of other brands. Rarely heard of any coating damages. So yes, your TOA is a rather new speci with quite a number of issues allready IMO and I doubt that all are abuse of users. If it were so we would have heard of a lot more from all other brands too I believe.


Edited by roadi, 27 March 2015 - 10:56 AM.


#117 edif300

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:24 PM

 

 


Looks like a manufacturing issue!! The TOA's are relatively new and so many serious coating issues allready doesn't seem to be a user related issue IMO.

 

 

There is nothing relatively new in TOA/TSA/FSQ. TOAs are in production since 2003... more years than your doublet FS-128.

 

 


 

How do you know about that? or do you happend to know the seriel nr on my FS?  and the TOA's involved? I didn't specificaly talk about my FS either but more so of refractors as a whole! Talking about Takahashi only, theres a lot of FC's, FCT's around which are made long before your TOA as are a lot of other brands. Rarely heard of any coating damages. So yes, your TOA is a rather new speci with quite a number of issues allready IMO and I doubt that all are abuse of users. If it were so we would have heard of a lot more from all other brands too I believe.

 

 

How do you know that is a manufacturing issue? after 12 years of manufacturing of thousand 130s and 150s, the TOA is a relative new specimen? And why not are the FS-XXN-S-V, TSA, FSQ-ED? being technically contemporanean lenses. The questions you made me, you can make these to yourself. Why you don't questioning your statements?

 

No need your ns. The FS were produced during 1994-2003 -11 years- and FS-YYN(S)(V) from 2004 to 2006 - 2 years -. The FC 81-94, FCT from 85-98. A good number of 12 years for the TOA, enough to solve any coating problem if this required.

 

Till now, when I saw a permanently damage in coating was by inadequate cleaning. This includes not only TOA (and I will not write more because then you and some others will make a easy but wrong conclusion)... and all of them by inadequate cleaning.

 

So strange... people talking about a good matching diagonal for TSA or TOA and suddenly a comment of supposed coating fragility on TOA :scratchhead:



#118 WesC

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:34 PM

Yeah lets try to keep this back on track and not start fighting with each other.


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