Quote:It isn't worth arguing about (I mean in the sense of coming up with debate-worthy arguments). My sense is that Nightfall will not be in our lifetimes and there is nothing that anyone can produce in a debate that has any particular weight.
"Scientists aren't perfect, just peer reviewed.""Eye of Sauron Observatory", featuring "Sauron's Other Eye", 16" dob, conical Royce mirror.
Quote:I think I've said something like this once before here. It's 1 in the morning (EDST) and a bunch of us are here talking about this stuff we talk about.We don't have lives, do we?Otto
Quote: It is a common, and unfortunate, error to believe that biological evolution is a kind of pyramid leading to some sort of human summit.
Reality is a figmentnewton of your imagination
--------------------- --------------------- "Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion." Titus Lucretius Carus 99-55 B.C.
Quote:...considering how horrible humanity has tending to treat groups of humans it considered sub-human in different eras of colonization; might it cause us to be a bit more willing to treat a bit more kindly, those with "mind" with whom we one day make contact, if we considered all with "mind" fundamentally the same?Otto
Quote:Anyway, I am interested in knowing peoples opinions about whether or not "mind" (i.e. self-awareness, choice, understanding, reasoning) is some type of biological/engineering summit and, if so, would it be appropriate to consider all beings with mind; to be fundamentally the same.
Clear skies!- Steve"It takes all the running you can do just to stay in one place." - The Red Queen
Quote: Some days I'm pretty sure my dog is smarter than me.
Quote:One on one a human would have no chance against a Tiger competing over a slab of meat.
1987 Meade LX3 2120 10" SCT on hypertuned EQ6 Pro Baader Self-Mod Canon XS_CLS Clip Filter DSI color_Orion ST80 Coulter 10" Compact Odessey Dob http://www.astrobin.com/users/shawnhar
Quote:First you need to define "improvement". Without bias to what you, as a human, regard as improvement.Difficult, isn't it...
Quote:I am curious; would you imagine evolutionary development is capable of a quantitative improvement over or compared to human mind, or do you imagine evolution is capable of a qualitative improvement over human mind?
Quote:Quote:One on one a human would have no chance against a Tiger competing over a slab of meat. You would have no chance against a squirrell! (and they are small, cute n furry with bushy tails) When we were kids I saw my friend grab one, he went to the hospital. We are nothing without our tools compared to anything with claws and teeth.
Quote: Well said. Evolution is directionless.
Quote:"I realized science couldn't answer any of the really interesting questions. So, I turned to philosophy. I've been searching for God ever since." Bud Chantillas, mission surgeon, Red Planet.
Quote:Quote: Well said. Evolution is directionless. Not sure I agree with the totality of that statement. Evolution encompasses a number of subset rules.Random genetic mutation is directionless. The mutations occur spontaneously without reference to the outside environment. (Although I could argue about certain environmental exsposures causing organisms to suffer specific higher probability mutations..but that's another argument).However, Natural selection IS directed in that forces actively select which mutations are passed on.We even have directed artificial selection that has lead to a new species of Fruit fly.So, I would say, genetic mutation is non-directional but evolution as a whole does tend to be directional--in the direction best suited for a particular niche.Just saw World War Z with Brad Pitt last night, While I rated the movie 'D' for dumb, it did kinda touch on this aspect of selection as the way the Zombie virus was 'particular' about the way it spread..and also which turned out to be its Achilles heel.Pesse (It was still a dumb movie though.....) Mist
Quote: .... but many of them are simply invisible to selection.
Quote:Quote: .... but many of them are simply invisible to selection. Pesse (Until they get their turn at bat...) Mist
Quote:evolution is caused by the environment
Quote:evolution is caused by the environment
Quote:Drawing, seriously now, on your scientific acumen, I would be very interested to hear if there are specific quantitative and qualitative changes to human-mind you would suspect are never possible...
Quote:This is not a response to anyone in particular, thought the use of "quick reply" always seems to get attached to the last to post.Anyway, you "pointy eared *BLEEP*" are so good at parse-ing words and focusing on the connotative and secondary words stated; let's try this one...are there any quantitative or qualitative changes in human-kind you would not expect to see from the parameters and limitations you are aware of in evolutionary biology.Drawing, seriously now, on your scientific acumen, I would be very interested to hear if there are specific quantitative and qualitative changes to human-mind you would suspect are never possible; changes which others who haven't thought much about it, like myself, would be surprised to hear and then, once we get the gist of it, would say, "yah, that makes sense".Otto