Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
☄ ⒼⒶⓁⒶⒸⓉⒾⒸ ⓈⓉⓄⓃⒺ - www.galactic-stone.com
Cactus Patch Observatory / 14" LX200
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom, and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three."
"Scientists aren't perfect, just peer reviewed.""Eye of Sauron Observatory", featuring "Sauron's Other Eye", 16" dob, conical Royce mirror.
Clear skies - Jim Crazy PNW imager !
A-P Mach1 on 12" concrete pier - ROR structure.
Tak FSQ85-EDX, Tak FS-128. Orion 8" f/3.9 w/MoonLite motorized - MPCC MkIII CCD:
SBIG 8300M/FW8, Astrodon 36mm LRGB, 5nm Ha, 3nm SII, OIII - Canon EOS 6D unmod SSI3, SSAG,
Skytools3pro, MaxImDLpro, PSCS5, PSPpro, TheSkyX, TheSky6, BYE, StarTools
Orion XX14g -for visual- diags, ep's, accy tubes, Binocs .
Orion xx14g Dob CPC 1100 w/Skywatcher 80ED piggybacked Coronado PST TMB 92L refractor AT Voyager mount Nexstar 6/8 mount Denk Big Easy binoviewers Oodles of eyepieces and other optical gadgets Past scopes Meade 8" reflector and 8" SCT
Quote:We assume that other civilizations (if they exist) are bound by the same laws of physics that we are. This also assumes that our understanding of those laws are correct. This also assumes that these are "laws" to start with. This ignores the likelihood that we are children trying to craft "laws" that explain the nature of the sandbox we find ourselves in.
Reality is a figmentnewton of your imagination
Fearing that beings who are not subject to the laws of physics will do something physical to us isn't really a very helpful emotion, because if they are really all that transcendent, there's nothing we can do to hide anyway.
Quote:Man has a long way to go before he has matured enough to be worth the aliens effort. I fear too much, too soon and you might as well make mankind a footnote.
HyperTuned CGEM and G11wG2 SV115T20, Meade SN-8, AT-66, and modified 20d. Nebulosity, SkyTools3, TSX, and Pixinsight.
Quote:I would also add that advanced civilizations would not need our I Love Lucy' reruns to smack them on the side of the head.We are arguably a decade away from planetary telescopes that can generate spectrum from the reflected light of Earth-sized planets.If we could get a clean spectrum of an Earth sized planet we could, with today's technology, almost pinpoint the technological development of the planet by what we found in the atmosphere. Oxygen means life. Add in the ratios of carbon dioxide, methane, sulfur compounds etc and you can pick a pretty close point of where that civilization is along the lines of technological development. Focus radio receivers on the planet and a spoonful of clear radio signatures will also narrow the spread of years.
Quote:For example, after the invention of radio Earth's brightness in the radio spectrum went up exponentially. However, now we are starting to dim down again as radio broadcasts are replaced by fiber optic connections. Graph it out and you can probably guess where a civilization is in its linear tech development.My point is that aliens probably have already developed this technology and improved upon it by many orders of magnitude. They wouldn't even need to expend their double secret spinach derived Popeye rocket fuel to come look us over.Food? Not likely. Even if we are edible why travel to a farmers field 2000 miles away when you can raise your own tasty treats right on your own planet?
Quote:Resources? Nope. One word here: Gravity well. OK, Maybe that was 2 words but the point remains everything on a planet is exponentially more cost prohibitive to procure than simply plucking it from a nearby asteroid belt.
Quote:Colony World? Doubtful. While aliens may be technically far ahead of us we humans can make a rather nasty nuisance of ourselves. America has the most technically sophisticated military on the planet yet is stymied by guys in caves with WW2 rifles and homemade explosives. We also tend to learn at a prestigious rate. Shoot us with a Death Ray and I bet scientists will figure out how it works very quickly. Capture one Alien tank with a Cold Fusion drive and all humanity now has that tech....Pesse (It would be interesting to figure what the average rate of technical progress is among sentient races? I bet it can vary considerably and humans are probably more clever than average!) Mist
Quote:In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields.
Quote:And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy.
Quote:But, to address what Dave said - if the chances are so extremely remote that anyone will listen or respond, then why do it at all? Surely that instrument time is better served for a purpose that will yield results? We come back to hubris. Let's do it because we can and let's ignore all the valid concerns raised by our peers.
Quote:I think this short video clearly explains my position :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI
I know exactly where I will be on 21 August 2017. "From ingress to sunset." 5 June 2012. Astronomical League member since 2012.
Quote:Quote:In all the movies, our most powerful weapons are ineffective against their force shields. But They will be helpless against Slim Whitman's yodeling.Quote:And anyway, maybe they like I Love Lucy. If they are truly a civilized race, of course they will.
1987 Meade LX3 2120 10" SCT on hypertuned EQ6 Pro Baader Self-Mod Canon XS_CLS Clip Filter DSI color_Orion ST80 Coulter 10" Compact Odessey Dob http://www.astrobin.com/users/shawnhar
"After the Laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
Elmira-Corning Astronomical Society
Quote:The point is, why take a risk when the chance of a positive payoff is zero or next to zero? This makes no sense at all. It is a waste of instrument time. Besides, they have NO mandate to do this on the behalf of the entire planet. The arrogance of it all is striking.
Quote:What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.
Quote:What risk? Arguably, you're facing a far greater risk from some random child now being born in another state: He could grow up and become a drunk driver on your highway.
Quote:As for wasting time, lots of people think that we're doing that whenever we break out our little telescopes. The chances of us discovering anything scientifically new from gazing at M13 are pretty much nil. At least our instruments aren't publically paid for.
Quote:In that vein, isn't SETI privately funded? If so, they can pretty much do what they want. You can't show that there's any real risk to us from them doing that. And if performing some random vanishingly small risk on private funding needs a global societal mandate, I fear for my next family vacation.
"Many a night I saw the Pleiads, rising thro' the mellow shade, Glitter like a swarm of fire-flies tangled in a silver braid." Tennyson: Locksley Hall
Quote:But there is a second issue that is not at all the same. This one belongs to that very large category that could be called "the ethics of scientific research." From the atomic bomb to efforts to clone or even create life, and so on and so forth, individual scientific research projects have the potential to affect the entire globe. The ethics of such activities are very far from being formulated (medical ethics is an especially large area of study), but it is still a valid question to ask whether the activities of the few should be allowed to affect the lives of the many. In this regard, since those who are carrying out this SETI plan wouldn't be doing so if they didn't think that there was some chance of their messages reaching somebody elsewhere, we are perfectly justified in considering the risks because those risks involve us all. (As for the motivations: I think these SETI guys, after years of detecting nothing, are getting impatient and are hoping to jump start the ET communication project.) Unfortunately, with the field of scientific ethics being so uncertain and unauthoritative, we have no institutions or laws to regulate such private behavior.