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The C11 wins for visual. You can't fight the laws of physics. It pulls in WAY more light. Yes, the TEC will be more contrasty (is that a word?), but it can't even come close to the resolving power of the SC.
Quote:I don't know where you heard that you need an SCT that is twice as big to match a refractor.
Maybe you need one twice as big if the quality is poor, but if the quality is excellent, the SCT only needs to be about 35% larger.
I have a really superb Celestron EdgeHD. About the best optics I have ever seen in a commercial SCT. The difference between the SCT and my 6" APO is far less than most people would believe.
Dark Arts Observatory - Brockport, NY - Skyshed POD XL5 with iOptron iEQ45 Mount
Scopes: C8, C5, SV110 ED, EON-72 ED, ST 80, ATRC6, Megrez 90
Kmart 40mm-Thanks Mom|Jason60mm-Thanks Dad|C80SS-Thanks Wife|C90|C102|C6XLT|AP130EDFGT|C-11XLT EQ-2|EQ-3|CG5GT|Mach 1 & Eagle "For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return".-Leonardo da Vinci "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-Oscar Wilde ~RIP Dad, you were my best friend...Godspeed!~
Quote:.. Perhaps getting both a refractor and SCT in the future may be the way to go, especially if one telescope can't do everything well. But, it seems that sacrificing a little of the upper echelon of image quality, an 11" SCT is the "Do Everything Telescope" for viewing. But the wide angle views must truly be majestic in refractors...
Quote: I also wish there was a way to see images from a TEC 140 and 11" SCT at the same magnification of let's say 200-250X and see what the differences are in image quality of the same target in space. Are there any images of "test targets" in space between a 5-5.5" refractor and SCT? That would really be interesting to see how big or small the visual differences are.
Quote:Early on, I just want to do viewing. Image brightness will is going to be important. As time goes on, I'd like to add imaging to the hobby. I just don't know of too many top tier 11" SCTs that can be mounted on a EQ mount?...
Quote:It looks like the Meade LX200 12" SCT can't fit onto a German EQ mount?
LX850 blog: www.LX-850.com
personal website: www.wadsworthobservatory.com
Quote: Quote:.. Perhaps getting both a refractor and SCT in the future may be the way to go, especially if one telescope can't do everything well. But, it seems that sacrificing a little of the upper echelon of image quality, an 11" SCT is the "Do Everything Telescope" for viewing. But the wide angle views must truly be majestic in refractors... A couple of quick thoughts;- As a do everything visually scope, Newtonians have their virtues... Shorter focal lengths, smaller central obstructions, faster cooling optics, larger practical apertures.- A larger scope and and smaller refractor make a good combo. I think a faster 4 inch refractor is a good companion for a larger scope. A TEC 140 would provide more detailed views but requires a mount that makes it about as manageable and portable as the 11 inch SCT. A scope that is easy to setup up is more likely to be used... Jon Isaacs
SteveC TEC 140 Intes Micro 715 deluxe TEC 110 SolarMax 40 Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, CGEM, Vixen Skypod TEC EP Turret, AP Maxbright, Denk P/S Diagonal, Denk II B/V, EarthWin P/S Slide TMB Supermonos, ZAO IIs, Zeiss Monocentrics, Naglers, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA, 5mm Pentax XO, 20mm ES100, and 2.9mm, 4.4mm, 5.9mm, 7.4mm Couture (ball)
Quote: I read these posts and I ask myself, why didn't I buy a 11" SCT or a 14" Dob, I'm missing out on a lot of stuff. I begin to make plans, because I forget that there is a reason why I bought the TEC140. I need an avid viewing neighbor, who own a large SCT or Dob, so that I can walk over and start viewing when it's convenient for me.
Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life
Bashful, Misty, and little Ralphie - my heavenly stars
A-P 105 Traveler ~ TEC 140 ED ~ TEC 6 MCT
A-P Mach1 GTO ~ Losmandy GM-8 ~ TV Gibraltar
Quote:Quote: I read these posts and I ask myself, why didn't I buy a 11" SCT or a 14" Dob, I'm missing out on a lot of stuff. I begin to make plans, because I forget that there is a reason why I bought the TEC140. I need an avid viewing neighbor, who own a large SCT or Dob, so that I can walk over and start viewing when it's convenient for me.Steve,I have owned two C11, one C925, and one Meade 10 inch. The only thing you are missing is the brighter view the extra aperture can collect.My TEC 140 is sharper than all of those scopes and much easier to use and manage - less cool down time, no collimation hassle, no worries about dew, MUCH better focuser, no mirror shift, and lighter (except for the C925).It's all about personal choice. I tried to go for more aperture, but in the end I keep coming back to the better quality view.Ron's Rule - The best scope for anyone is the scope they WANT to use, can't wait to use, and feel they have wasted a night if they don't use. Cheers,Ron
Quote:Great discussion. At the same magnification, just how much wider is the view in a refractor, like the TEC 140, compared to a SCT, like the C11?...A wide field of view associated with refractors has a unique grandeur that sounds appealing to my style of viewing. It's analogous to panoramic photography. Do any of you use the Televue Ethos eyepieces with refractors?... a 100+ degree view at the same magnification seems amazing...Thanks
Quote: Having seen crowds of people use SCTs and APOs right next to them, I'd say the average person is instantly drawn to the views in the refractors.
SCOPES: CPC1100; AT66ED; EdgeHD 8";SVR90 RAPTOR MOUNTS: CGEM; Vixen GP2; iOptron Sky Tracker; Celestron AVX CAMERAS: Canon 60D;Lodestar EYEPIECES:31T5;D14;D8;P20;P25;P32;TMB9 The Lord sits enthroned above the circle of the earth...He stretched out the heavens like a canopy.
Clear skies - Jim Crazy PNW imager !
A-P Mach1 on 12" concrete pier - ROR structure.
Tak FSQ85-EDX, Tak FS-128. Orion 8" f/3.9 w/MoonLite motorized - MPCC MkIII CCD:
SBIG 8300M/FW8, Astrodon 36mm LRGB, 5nm Ha, 3nm SII, OIII - Canon EOS 6D unmod SSI3, SSAG,
Skytools3pro, MaxImDLpro, PSCS5, PSPpro, TheSkyX, TheSky6, BYE, StarTools
Orion XX14g -for visual- diags, ep's, accy tubes, Binocs .
Quote:In my 8" SCT, the absolute widest true field of view I can get is about 1.9°. If I go wider, the view is clipped. -Dan
Rob ... my avatar pic is me ... on a good day! ********************** SV-105T Canon 12x36 IS binos Pan 22 Nag 12T2 Delos 8 XCEL-LX 7mm Nag 5T6 Previous Scopes: .... many apos and a few dobs!
Quote:Actually in the Meade and Celestron 8 inchers the maximum field of view is around 1.2 degrees. The baffle tube in the smaller SCTs is the limiting factor. Wide field scopes these are not. This has been ray traced etc.
Quote:The widest I can get is with a 2" diagonal and a 2" 36mm EP with 72° apparent FOV. With that EP, I see a very thin black area at the outside of the field where the view is clipped. I measured it using the goto mount by targeting a daytime object with the scope horizontal, moving the target from one edge of the field to the other, and subtracting the azimuth readings on the scope. -Dan
Quote: In this regard, on a TEC 140, is it possible to enjoy 100 degree wide views with a 6mm Ethos @163X without vignetting? How much magnification or how wide can one go?
TEC140 (#216) Leica 17.8...8.9mm ASPH Zoom also barlowed 1.5x/2.0x/2.5x with Baader VIP Modular Barlow WO UWAN 28mm Baader 2" Herschel Wedge with SolarContinuum filter AYO AltAz mount on a Berlebach UNI19 tripod (sold: Zeiss AOII set with Zeiss Abbe 2x Barlow, see Leica zoom vs. ZAOII)
Quote:I tried to compare images/videos of Jupiter taken with a few 4" apochromatic refractors and C11 SCT and 10" Newtonians. Wow! no comparison, the reflector had much more detail at similar magnifications. There also was an image taken with the TEC 140. It fared better than the Chinese 4" ED refractors, but not enough to match the 11" SCT or Newtonians.C11 SCT:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L73UTz4BNlgTak 130 TOA Refractor:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xM9VVfCwLIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIxtrcBdY6M&feature=related
Quote: Quote: Having seen crowds of people use SCTs and APOs right next to them, I'd say the average person is instantly drawn to the views in the refractors. My experience has been the reverse... Patrick
Quote:BTW: Both of those Jupiter videos are very obviously processed from many stacked photos rather than shot straight through a webcam like the Saturn video. How do I know, can you visually detect Jupiter rotating in 8 seconds when looking at it. These videos are NOT an apples to apples comparison. The image by the SCT is actually pretty good for a live/unstacked webcam shot.
Rodger EON 80 Tak TSA-102 EON 120 Orion Apex 127mm Meade AR6 Tak FS-152 Celestron Nexstar 6SE and 8SE Celestron 9.25" SCT Meade 10" LX50 Celestron 11" SCT Celestron 14" SCT 16" Teeter/Zambuto 20" f/5 Obsession Classic Zeiss Conquest HD 10X42 Astro Physics Premium 15X70 Oberwork 20X80 Deluxe III Oberwork BT 100-45 Complete set of Baader Genuine Orthos Zeiss Diascope eyepiece 12mm, 68AFOV, Great eye relief (sharpest, highest contrast eyepiece I own, just awesome) etc., etc.
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis 1966 Unitron 4" Model 152 EQ Tec 140 TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer FLI ML8300 and CFW-2-7 filter wheel Astrodon Gen2 RGBL 2" filters Baader 2" Narrow Band Filters Borg 50mm Guide Scope/ATIK Titan Guide Camera AstroPhysics AP900 Losmandy GM-8 Gemini
Quote:I love reading these "my 140mm APO can crush your 14" SCT" posts. Unfortunately, I continually refer back to what can be done with a 14" SCT. If you look at Damion Peach's website, specifically the photos of Jupiter, you can see surface detail on Jupiter's moons! I have never seen an example of a 140mm APO which can do the same.