Stefan
sage
Reged: 01/21/04
Posts: 421
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It just arrived, the NEW Canon EOS 20Da, optimized for astrophotography.
I think it is a limited version of the EOS 20D, but spezialized for astrophotographers. Of course you can use the 20Da without any limitations for daytime photography also. The 20Da is more sensitive in the red at 656.3nm, the light of many glowing nebulas, because of a modification of the IR cut filter in front of the CMOS chip. And the 20Da allows live focussing on the TFT screen at the camera backside! In the 'B' (bulb) position you can choose 'FC' for 'Focus Control'. After pushing (and holding down) the shutter release the mirror flip up and the center of the image is shown live on the TFT screen. That is perfect to find the best focus!
Externally only the emblem is the difference between the 20Da and the 20D.
Click here for an image showing the 'Focus Control' setting in the display of the 20Da.
First I wanted to determine how much more sensitive the 20Da is compared to a 20D. I measured that at daylight through an Astronomik H-alpha filter with a bandwidth of 15nm. I figured out, that the increase of sensitivity at 656nm is
0.55
That means round about a half exposure step. With other words: A red nebula imaged with the 20D in 90 seconds, the 20Da needs only 60 seconds for the same result. Not much better, but better than nothing...
Click here for an image showing a part of the test images, both captured with absolutely the same parameters and an exposure time of 0.5 seconds.
It would be interesting to compare the 20Da against a modified 20D without any IR blocking filter at all.
BTW: A power supply unit to run the 20Da with the 110/220V of your house is included and must not sold seperately.
Here are two snapshots of the 20Da in use:
Here the Canon EOS 20Da, connected with a T-adapter to the flatfield lens of an Astro-Physics refractor, the battery grip BG-E2 is optional
Here the Canon EOS 20Da, connected to an Astro-Physics 155mm (6") refractor
-kidding on-
The display of the 20Da shows the Orion Nebula M42, captured with the 20Da at daylight!
-/kidding off-
Update 1:
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Regarding the noise, the 20Da and the 20D are at the same level. I photographed a poster with both cameras in a relatively dark room. I used ISO 800 settings and 8 seconds exposure time. I tried one image with and one image without automatic noise reduction (which means an automatic substraction of a darkframe).
Click here to see the results.
The white balance was manually set to 'Daylight'. You can see the slightly higher sensitivity in red of the 20Da. That causes a slight red tint as well as the brighter impression. For daylight images, you can easily fix that red tint with any image processing software. But regarding the noise, I canīt see any difference. Surprisingly the automatic noise reduction makes a very small difference only, if any.
Update 2:
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Last night I had some clear hours so I started to compare the two cameras at the sky.
Click here for an image fraction in original size, captured with the Canon EF-S lens 2.8/60mm Macro. The exposure time was 5 minutes at f/2.8 and ISO 100 settings. No darkframe was applied. I hope you can see the shape of the Northamerica nebula in both images.
I procressed both images in the same way, so they are comparable.
I donīt wanted to make a 'pretty picture' but I wanted to see if and how much the better red sensitivity of the 20Da is an advantage in real life.
You can see the result: It IS an advantage!
Update 3:
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Some words about the live focus at the TFT screen of the camera. It works phantastic! That feature was added to the 20Da to support the astrophotographers, but I find it useful for non-astrophotographers too.
Click here for a view of the camera backside, showing the star Vega through a 85mm lens. You can see, that the star is not sharp.
And click here to see the same scene after Vega was focussed properly.
The camera magnify the center of the image as much as possible. That means one image pixel is matching to one pixel of the TFT screen. To find the best focus is 'a walk in the park'.
I made a focustest with the Canon EF-S 2.8/60mm Macro lens: I centered Vega in the field, so even the autofocus of the camera had a chance.
Click here for the result of my focus test.
The autofocus did a very bad job (left image). Even after several trials it doesnīt find any focus better than that one! The image in the middle is much sharper. I focussed that manually while looking through the view finder of the camera without any aid (magnifying glass or something like that). I tried my very best (of course: with the help of a magnifying glass it would be able to find a better focus, however). The right image was focussed with the live method on the TFT screen of the camera, that the 20Da provides exclusively. It was very easy to find the best focus that way, and there was never any doubt that this IS the best focus point indeed.
The three images are showing an image fraction in original size (100%), the bright star is Vega and above Vega you can find the double double Epsilon Lyrae (here only double of course). All three images were made with the Canon EOS 20Da, 60 seconds exposure time, f/2.8 and ISO 100 settings.
Thanks for reading. Thats all for now from the 'Canon test lab' .
Best wishes
Stefan
PS: Sorry for my rusty English.
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JamesBaud
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/21/04
Posts: 1137
Loc: Granite Bay, CA
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I've never seen autofocus work on stars on any camera... It runs the gamut then gives up, usually focused at like .5 meters. Do some cameras actually focus correctly at night, looking at stars?
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Tonk
Postmaster
Reged: 08/19/04
Posts: 6100
Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
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I'm not impressed by the H alpha response - the Hutech modded 20D is much better. This has convinced me NOT to buy this
-------------------- Televue 85/TRF-2008 field flattener, Meade LX200 10", Manfrotto 055SSB tripod/410 geared head/AstroTrac TT320X-AG/056 3D head, GM-8/Gemini, 10 Micron 1000 HPS, Canon 40D (unmodded), Canon 450D (modded w/Astronomiks clip-ins - UV/IR, OWB), Coronado SM60/Lunt B1200/WO diagonal, Baader Herschel Wedge
Leeds Sky Clock Ripon Sky Clock
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Stefan
sage
Reged: 01/21/04
Posts: 421
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Matt,
> I've never seen autofocus work on stars on any camera
At least one friend of me is successful using the AF at stars, I think he has a Nikon D70.
I had luck using the AF at the Moon and even at Jupiter.
Best, Stefan
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Stefan
sage
Reged: 01/21/04
Posts: 421
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Tony,
> I'm not impressed by the H alpha response
Me too.
> the Hutech modded 20D is much better
That is interesting. How much better? Are there any tests available?
Do you know that or do you believe that?
And keep in mind: Not every modification coming from Hutech is still useable for non-astronomy photography.
Best, Stefan
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AuroraSeeker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 1377
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Yeah, I agree. My friend has a 20Da and i compared it with my home-modified 300D Rebel, and the H-Alpha response doens't even compare. In fact, i'm willing to say its just a bit better than a stock 20D.
Also, we were playing with the real-time focus and i was not impressed at all. Laptop programs to focus as much much better, in my opinion.
Sure, HUTECH cameras cannot be easily used for daytime photography, but then again, you don't a modified camera from HUTECH to use it for daytime stuff.
Heck, if you wanted to do both astrophotography and daytime shooting, you'd still be better off, and CHEAPER, to buy a stock 350XT Rebel, and a modified HUTECH 350XT Rebel. It still would be cheaper than a 20Da.
Dan
-------------------- http://www.danielmccauley.com/
Daniel McCauley, Astrophotographer
Southern New Jersey
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Psion
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 706
Loc: Czech Republic, Prague
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Modification by firm Hutech has two variants - clear window and IR cut window. I belive the Hutech modification is better for H-alfa images, because 20Da has not only IR cut filter and this filter cutting a part of red wavelength not only IR.
-------------------- Newton 200/800, 200/1200, 100/1000
Sky-Watcher ED80 + mount CG5 GT
PENTAX 75 SDHF, TEC 140-2011
Mount Celestron CGE
Meade LX200R 8" OTA
EOS 300Da, SBIG ST-402ME, SBIG ST-2000XM
Spectrograph SBIG DSS-7, LHIRES III
Mintron 12V1C-EX modif (amp off)
http://astroview.psionfired.com
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Stefan
sage
Reged: 01/21/04
Posts: 421
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Dan,
> Laptop programs to focus as much much better, in my opinion.
Iīm familiar with DSLRfocus as well and I canīt agree.
With live focussing on the TFT screen the 20Da provides you have no image download delay. That means you have realtime images like a video. With software, however, you have to wait for the next image download.
More: You donīt need a Laptop for imaging at all.
There is only one big disadvantage with live focussing: If you use a refractor and targeting to an object high in the sky, focussing can be a physical exercise.
Best, Stefan
http://www.astromeeting.de
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Emanuele
Lord of the Ring
Reged: 11/19/03
Posts: 5652
Loc: Brescia-Italy, and Iowa-US
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HI Stefan....
thanks for the great report.
I have a question: live focusing, wouldn't it be a matter of firmware update? I mean does it depend on the mechanical of the camera or it can be provided by a simple firmware update?
-------------------- Backyard Skies
Astro-Physics 130EDF Gran Turismo
TEC MC200 F15.5
Astro-Physics Mach1GTO on Rob Miller TRI36L
Super Half Hitch on AP Wood Tripod
Baader/Zeiss Mark V
FLI ML8300 & CFW2-7 with Baader Filters
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Stefan
sage
Reged: 01/21/04
Posts: 421
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Emanuele,
> does it depend on the mechanical of the camera or it can be provided by a > simple firmware update?
To be honest: I donīt know. But I believe a simple firmware doesnīt work. I read about one guy who updated his 20D with the firmware of the 20Da. Now he can choose 'Focus Control' in the menu, but it seems not working, however.
Best, Stefan
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Corn
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 2199
Loc: Sweden
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Thanks for the report Stefan. Live focus sure looks like e neet feature. To bad they didnīt implement it on all cameras. H-alpha response with a modified canon camera is 4-5 times better than a stock camera. QE of the canon CMOS sensor without IR filter is 30-40%.
Cheers
-------------------- Canon 300D (mod)
8" f/5 Skywatcher, EQ6 Pro, HEQ5 and Barn door mount.
http://web.telia.com/~u18524382/
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Max leiva
sage
Reged: 10/29/04
Posts: 233
Loc: Luxembourg
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I'll stick to my 300D and most probably end up modifying it myself one of these days.
Eventually, I will consider going the CCD way (can't beat the QE of cooled sensors).
Have fun,
-------------------- Max Leiva
A-P 900GTO
FSQ-106ED
STL-11000M
Questar 3.5
12" LX-200GPS
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AuroraSeeker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 1377
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Have you tried outputting the live focus mode to an external LCD. This might help save your neck / back.
-------------------- http://www.danielmccauley.com/
Daniel McCauley, Astrophotographer
Southern New Jersey
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GB_10D
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/01/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Austria
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Quote:
Sure, HUTECH cameras cannot be easily used for daytime photography, but then again, you don't a modified camera from HUTECH to use it for daytime stuff.
This is not true anymore. I have the version with the clear glass, and for my daylight photography I use a 'front filter', whose spectral response matches the original Canon filter. It snaps right in front of the mirror box. Results are excellent, the only remaining problem might be some moire problem, which didn't occur yet.
Gerhard
-------------------- Astro Systeme Austria ASA 10N-OK3 f3,6
TMB 80mm/f6 + Televue 0.8x reducer/flattener
Finger Lakes Instumentation PL16803 + CFW 5-7
Finger Lakes Instumentation ML8300
Astro Systeme Austria ASA DDM85
http://www.pbase.com/gbachmayer/astropix
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Ralph McIntosh
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 908
Loc: Hanau/Germany
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Thanks Stefan for your report.
But I am not impressed about the H-Alpha sensitivity of the 20Da at all.
A friend measured the original Canon Filter and my replacement Baader UV/IR Filter (the one I used to mod my 300D, btw. SuW will bring a large report about the modification on 16 August).
The Baader Filter shows 3 times the sensitivity of the original Filter (about 30% to 90%)
Ralph
-------------------- http://home.arcor.de/ralph.mcintosh/
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AuroraSeeker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 1377
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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When you say "original Canon Filter", do you mean the original Canon 20Da filter??? Or some other filter.
Lots of people are comparing the H-Alpha sensitivity, but i have yet to see an actual comparison vs the 20Da.
You say the Baader Filter shows 3 times the sensitivity of the original Filter (about 30% to 90%), but this doesn't really tell me much. Original filter of what? 20Da? 300D? What is this range of 30% to 90% and what does it apply to?
Has anyone actually taken numerical data on the 20Da yet???
-------------------- http://www.danielmccauley.com/
Daniel McCauley, Astrophotographer
Southern New Jersey
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Rat8bug
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/07/05
Posts: 1713
Loc: Michigan
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The proof is in the pudding! Enough of the tech-talk, let's see what this baby can do with some astro-images 
Ciao....Barry
-------------------- Nikon D40/D50/D70 DSLR
WO 105mm Triplet APO
WO Zenithstar 66SD APO (Black 'n Blue)
WO 8 x 45mm APO Bino
UO 20 x 80mm Bino
Vixen 80SS Refractor
Orion 127mm Apex Maksutov
Vixen GP-DX with Skysensor 2000
SBIG STV and e-finder
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Ralph McIntosh
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 908
Loc: Hanau/Germany
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Well the orig. 300D Filter to the replaced Baader IR/UV Filter, what else...
If you talk about sensitivity in % range, then you talk about transmission of the fitter. 0% = no light passes 100% = all light passes.
If you measure the both filters you can do this at the H-alpha wavelength. Then you get about 30% transmission with the original filter, and over 90% with the Baader replacement filter. (I saw the measurement curves but I haven't got them yet)
Ralph
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AuroraSeeker
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 1377
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Yeah, but that doesn't tell us anything. The original 300D filter is not the filter in the Canon 20Da, so those numbers don't mean anything.
Even if the 300D filter replaced with the Baader IR/UV filter had zero attenuation at H-Alph wavelengths and passed 100% of that light, it still wouldn't tell us anything about the 20Da.
Barry,
Numerical data (such as a spectral response over wavelength) is very important because simply comparing astro-images is subjective.
-------------------- http://www.danielmccauley.com/
Daniel McCauley, Astrophotographer
Southern New Jersey
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Ralph McIntosh
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 908
Loc: Hanau/Germany
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I would bet a lot, if you take any kind of Canons DSLR's, you will find exactly the same Filter (not in size, but in substrate)
As a matter of fact, it is not so easy to set up such a filter system.
Ralph
-------------------- http://home.arcor.de/ralph.mcintosh/
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