WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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The Sketching forum has a vast amount of members who post sketches on a regular basis, and an even larger number of visitors who enjoy looking at the many sketches posted here. This post is for those who are frequent visitors but for one reason or another, have never tried sketching at the EP themselves.
Far too many folks are under the impression that they just can not sketch, or that their sketches aren’t good enough. BALONEY!
Everyone, regardless of their skill level or talent can make a sketch at the EP, the biggest “talent” involved is simply learning to do so under low-lighting conditions (red light) while observing. Even this only takes a little time to learn.
So, you claim that you are no Michelangelo or van Gogh…and you don’t have to be. Sketching at the EP isn’t about your artistic ability; it is about your excitement and enjoyment of observing the many objects in the night sky. This forum isn’t limited nor was it intended for only those who are proficient at sketching, it is for everyone and anyone who enjoys observing and recording their observations in a concrete form.
Yes, it is true that there are many here that are extremely talented at sketching, but not a single one of these folks started out as proficiently as what they are now. They all had to practice and refine their sketching techniques to get to the level they are at now; and they continue to learn and improve with each and every sketch they make.
The sketching forum is not a talent search or a forum intended for only those who have learned to refine their sketching techniques, it is for anyone who enjoys replicating on paper (or the computer) what they see when observing.
I would also like to point out that the Sketching Forum is not a “Purest” forum. There are those who consider one type of art superior over another, which is a shame. It is these folks who have limited themselves to the joy and enjoyment of the many artistic endeavors of others. Traditional art (paper & pencil, pen & paper, chalk, oils, etc.) and digital art (computerized) are simply mediums of ones own choice, familiarity and comfort level. The actual finished product, regardless of your medium of choice, is still simply a personal expression of what one sees while sitting at the EP. No single medium, method or process is superior or better than another is when one is simply expressing his or her own personal observation(s) while at the EP.
So, what do you need to start? Here is a fairly comprehensive list:
1. Paper 2. Pencil 3. A red light (to preserve your dark adaptation)
Now that wasn’t too difficult, was it?
The next step is to actually put onto paper what you are looking at through the EP. The simplest objects to begin with are double stars. Two dots on a piece of paper. In most (but not all) cases, one dot will be larger than the other.
First draw a circle on the piece of paper to represent the EP.

Now, start with the primary (the larger of the two) first. Center it in your EP and draw a dot on your piece of paper. There, your first sketch is already halfway done.

Next, draw the secondary (the smaller star). Simply try to place it in the proper position in relation to the first star that you drew. If the secondary star is northwest of the primary star, that is will you will want to place it.

Make note of the orientation. A simple way to do this is to simply watch and see what direction the object is moving in the EP. The direction that it is moving will always be West. North is simply counter-clockwise to the west.
Now provide any information you wish, such as the scope you used, the EP used and the time and date:

There, you are done and have completed your very first Astronomical Sketch. It wasn’t too difficult or time consuming. As a matter of fact, chances are you spent more time saying, “I can’t do that” and finding other excuses than it did to complete the sketch.
As you become more comfortable sketching, you can then add more detail(s) to your sketching such as background stars, color (if any), etc., etc…
Ask anyone who sketches and they will tell you the same thing: Sketching actually improves ones ability to see fainter and more detailed nuances of any object. Mostly due in part to the fact that while sketching, one spends more time observing the object they are sketching than they would by simply observing it and moving on to the next object.
So, now that you have run out of excuses, give it a try. It is a great way to create a record of your observations and more than that it is FUN!
I hope to see more folks give sketching at the EP a try and share their results with the rest of us.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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rd56
sage
Reged: 12/17/06
Posts: 412
Loc: Central New Jersey
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Wade, from someone who is graphically challenged I think you've done an excellent job at demystifying the sketching process and encouraging folks to try sketching at the eyepiece regardless of their "talent". I'm not very proficient at doing more than a rough sketch along with including as many descriptive notes/observations as I can. However, later using photoshop I can usually produce a passable representation and record of what I saw at the eyepiece.
By the way, have you considered posting this on the Beginners Forum? I bet a lot of newbies (myself included until very recently) are not aware of this aspect of the hobby or even the sketching forum itself. And for those of us who can't afford the equipment for astrophotography, sketching is a great way to create visual recordings of your observations.
-------------------- -Orion SkyQuest Intelliscope XT8
-Antares 8X50 RACI Finder
-Round Table Equatorial Platform
*Software*
-SkyChart (Cartes du Ciel)
-AstroPlanner
-Virtual Moon Atlas
Ron
E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle
(And so we came forth and once again beheld the stars)
Dante's Inferno
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Thank you for the kind words Ron.
I am trying awfuly hard to try and get others to become involved in sketching at the EP. I really doesn't matter what one's artistic skills are. It is just a very enjoyable and fun way to record ones observations.
I'm not too sure about posting something like this in the Beginners Forum...I am sure it would get moved right back here by one of the Moderators. But who knows, maybe I'll try to sneak it in. 
Quote:
And for those of us who can't afford the equipment for astrophotography, sketching is a great way to create visual recordings of your observations.
You can say that again!!
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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rd56
sage
Reged: 12/17/06
Posts: 412
Loc: Central New Jersey
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There are a lot of posts about astrophotography in the beginners forum with much concern expressed about equipment and cost. Don't see as how an introduction to sketching is any less of a beginner's topic of interest. Besides, folks in the sketching forum are probably already interested in sketching to some extent whereas many beginners may not even be aware of how easy it is to become involved.
Hey... Why not title your post "A cheap way to record what you see"
-------------------- -Orion SkyQuest Intelliscope XT8
-Antares 8X50 RACI Finder
-Round Table Equatorial Platform
*Software*
-SkyChart (Cartes du Ciel)
-AstroPlanner
-Virtual Moon Atlas
Ron
E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle
(And so we came forth and once again beheld the stars)
Dante's Inferno
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Ok, I have reposted this in the Beginners Forum...let's see if there is any interest or if it even stays there.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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Sidewinder
member
Reged: 09/15/06
Posts: 596
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Hey Wade, really nice article! I think it's a good thing to encourage people to sketch at the eyepiece, after all it's a way of recording your observations that has a lot of tradition. And as has been mentioned often enough, the sketches don't have to be works of art (even though many here can be considered just that!). And after all, it's always a cool thing to know that people are spending thousands of Dollars in photography equipment, whereas I just go and invest ten Bucks in a few sheets of paper and some pencils!:)
Sebastian
-------------------- teen
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Quote:
And after all, it's always a cool thing to know that people are spending thousands of Dollars in photography equipment, whereas I just go and invest ten Bucks in a few sheets of paper and some pencils!:)
That is also one of the benefits of sketching at the EP Sebastian. Sure, we all enjoy looking at the many Astrophotos posted by others here; and many of us would love to venture into this aspect of the hobby. But for many of us, the cost(s) involved are just too demanding whereas, as you pointed out, a pencil and paper costs only a few dollars.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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rodelaet
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/06
Posts: 3185
Loc: 50°56' N - 4°58' E (Belgium)
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Well done, Wade! I'm sure that your post will generate a lot of interest in the beginners forum.
-------------------- Rony
'The Casual Sky Observer's Guide.'
My Astronomical Sketches
My Binocular Sketches
Callibrate your Monitor with this little strip.
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Quote:
Well done, Wade! I'm sure that your post will generate a lot of interest in the beginners forum.
It has done just that Rony! So far a little over 270 hits on the thread, and I do believe we have a few new sketchers posting here as well.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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As I have noticed a few new people in the Sketching Forum as of late, I thought it would be a good time to bring this thread back up front.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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frank5817
Postmaster
Reged: 06/13/06
Posts: 7212
Loc: Illinois
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Wade,
Well Done!
Frank
-------------------- My Gallery
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pike_fly
sage
Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 365
Loc: Roxborough Park, Colorado
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For the beginner the question may be "why"? Why should I sketch?
I can only answer this question from personal experience, but I'd love to hear others (I think this was a thread once). Until I started sketching I only sat at the eyepiece for several minutes at a time - what I thought was a long time - observing a single object. Sketching forces you to look at an onject much closer and with greater detail. You notice things that you could never seein a couple of minutes and things that you never really looked for. I think it makes astronomy a lot more enjoyable. In the wordsof Paul Simon, "Slow down, you're moving to fast...".
The down side is it's been really windy here the past month. Although the skies are clear, I can't keep the paper in a position to sketch (no matter how many binder clips I use) and now I feel like I'm missing out on something. I think sketching becomes an addiction. But that's just me.
Thanks again Wade.
-------------------- Lee
10" Zhumell Dobsonian
Class 4 Bortle Scale Backyard Site
View Lee's Gallery
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Quote:
I think sketching becomes an addiction. But that's just me.
You can put me down for that category as well. I most definietly find sketching my observations very addicting indeed. Although I don't sketch each and every object I look at, I somehow feel that my observing sessions just aren't complete if I don't sketch at least one object per observing session. It can be something as simple as a double star, but to put onto paper what I observe is, to me, much more satisfying than a lengthy entry in my Astronomy Blog.
As to why I sketch (or like to sketch), I find that sketcing gives me an opportunity to instantly see, visually, my past observations; which has more impact and meaning than my journals ever could.
I also find that sketching has most certainly "trained" me to see the finer and more detailed nuances of certain objects I observe(Jeremy hinted upon this in his recent post). Until I started to sketch at the EP, I, like many, simply gazed at an object for a minute or two and moved on to the next. I never realized just how much I was missing by not spending the time to truely observe an object for a lengthy period of time until I started sketching.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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starquake
sage
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 254
Loc: Nádasdladány
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Hi, could you please take a look at my first sketches at the link below and give some feedback (bad or good)? I've just started to draw objects last week, and I had only a small chance to sketch because of the terrible weather these days. I know that some of my sketches are horrible (eg m42-43, that I've drawn on an especially bad day with a very low limiting magnitude), but I hope to get better at it.
The images I've drawn using ordinary HB pencils on white paper, then scanned/resized and inverted for a real-life look. They are not altered digitally otherwise. If you hoover over the image, it will change to the reverted look. Higher resolution images are also available.
(The white/black lines on the right of the image are the result of a bad conversion that I've just noticed today, but I'm not at the computer that has the sources now.)
At the moment there's no FOV, magnification, seeing, hmg, and other observation details available (of course I have everything documented but the info is not on the web yet).
Images were drawn using a 12" Newt on Dobsonian mounting, using various wide field (cca. 68degrees) eyepieces with magnifications from 45x to 167x.
And the link is: http://magictron.com/x
Many thanks in advance, and sorry for my English.
starquake
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THEPLOUGH
ELEVEN Grandchildren; FIVE Ducklings
Reged: 01/11/08
Posts: 16473
Loc: Carlisle, Cumbria, ENGLAND
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They are excellent. I love the nebula in particular.. ( THEIR IS NO NEED TOO APOLOGISE FOR YOUR ENGLISH.)
Geoff..--
-------------------- Geoff...
Nexstar 8SE + bits and pieces
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..... THE PERFECT DAY .....
==================================
...GO TO BED WITH A DREAM...
...WAKE UP WITH A PURPOSE...
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Jeremy Perez
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 2125
Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
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Ferenc, wow, your sketches are great--lots of detail, and careful crafting obviously went into them. (To anyone who views his site, be sure to click the "true color" or "inverted" links to see the images at full size.) Keep up the great work!
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Orion SVP 6LT (6" f/8 Newt) || Orion XT8 (8" f/5.9 Dob) || 15x70 Oberwerk Binoculars || Coronado PST
The Belt Of Venus || Sketch Gallery || Sketching Resources || Drawn to the Universe Column
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xfile101
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/08/07
Posts: 769
Loc: Ocean Gate, NJ
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Quote:
I somehow feel that my observing sessions just aren't complete if I don't sketch at least one object per observing session.
Although new to the sketching side of things I have to agree. It's also a way to record visually, it's much better and/or easier to "show" somebody what you saw than tell then, it get's your point across. I use my sketches as my background on my computer at work (about 1 a week) and I always get asked about the subject in question and I enjoy explaining how came about drawing the image. For the most part, people seem interested when I explain. The second reason I like to sketch, it's not as expensive as AP and the learning curve is a whole lot LESS than AP, although, there is a learning curve to sketching I don't think is is no where near the learning curve to AP, I'm lucky if I get a good pic of the moon out of 10 taken
-------------------- Orion XT8I
Celestron 114EQ Firstscope
Meade 70mm
Astroscan
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starquake
sage
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 254
Loc: Nádasdladány
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Thanks for your compliments! Well yes, the most difficult sofar was sketching ngc1807 + ngc1817, took me more than an hour, restarted from scratch once, decided to abandon at least three times, but at last I finished the sketch. It was especially dificult, because lots of the stars on that sketch were sometimes apparent only with averted vision, sometimes even directly. The limiting magnitude was around 14m that night (31.01.) and at that point of the sky, but I can only give raw estimates as the astronomy software I'm using got a database of stars only up to 12mags or so.
starquake
-------------------- Ferenc Lovró
{ The observer | The scopes | The sketches }
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1985
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Starquake,
Excellent folio of sketches. Your web site was a real treat for me.
Thanks,
-------------------- S.R.
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Erix
Toad Lily
Reged: 12/25/04
Posts: 24022
Loc: Texas, USA
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Starquake, welcome to CN!
Your sketches are wonderful and your starfields were very rich.
-------------------- Erika
Automatic doors make me feel like a Jedi.
Zhumell 16", 10" LX200 Classic,Celestron 102 XLT, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm, AT6RC
PCW Memorial Observatory
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Ok, it's been a while since I revived this thread, but the message is still the same:
Far too many folks are under the impression that they just can not sketch, or that their sketches aren’t good enough. BALONEY!
Sketching at the EP...give it a try!!!
--------------------
Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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JanisR
newbie
Reged: 06/26/08
Posts: 179
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Excellent thread.
All I could add is an echo of advice already given.
Sketching is fun, it's cheap, and it develops your brain's ability to perceive what your dark-adated eyes are seeing.
Okay, now for the boring stuff...
Your eyes are hard-wired to dark-adapt automatically, but your brain is *not*. It takes time to train your brain how to fully understand and process the new and unfamiliar data it's receiving under low-light conditions. (This is one reason for "beginner's frustration", where the observer is disappointed at what he cannot "see" with that new telescope. It may not be bad optics, or bad observing conditions - it may only be an inexperienced brain that's limiting the image.)
Sketching at the eyepiece forces the brain to work harder, since it must translate the incoming data into movement of hand and fingers to make the drawing. This is no simple task, but brains learn very quickly, so every new sketch attempted will be a little easier than the previous one was.
But it it takes time and patience, so give sketching a fair test, at least eight weeks, then go back and observe the first object you sketched again. My bet is you'll be saying to yourself "wow - how could I have missed *that*?" 
And even if you decide that sketching isn't your pleasure, you will still be able to enjoy the benefit of that trained brain of yours no matter how you do your observing.
-------------------- JanR
8" f/7.8 Criterion Custom Deluxe Dynascope
6" Criterion Dynascope
80mm Stellarvue ED
105mm Stellarvue APO
Coronado PST
Meade 60mm EXT
My CN Gallery
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markseibold
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/19/08
Posts: 1493
Loc: Portland Oregon
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Wade and Janis et al-
I am just jumping in here to be on the bandwagon of truth with both of you as I agree wholeheartedly with your words about others discovering the creative process. I happen to know why friends of mine who will only use a camera and never sketch, hold to this belief. Many of them think that the photograph will always show more detail. They would be very surprised what they will learn from sketching. It may even improve their photography.
With all due respect that we all have our own preferences in life, I know that it is true as many psychologists have written about this process of artistic learning to improve ones seeing through sketching and drawing. There are many quotes over the eons about this. I have conducted my own survey with friends and strangers alike. I have found that it takes some training of patience and humility to bolster ones confidence to accept constructive criticism. As a child growing up with a parent artist, I had the advantage to start young. It may be difficult to change for some later in life. An artist will always be held in the public eye of criticism which can be harsher in adult life. For better or worse- For richer or poorer- Till death, where the artist and the art will never part.
Picasso said, when you go to do art, you must think like a child again. He means of course to feel totally uninhibited. Not bound by all those rules, laws and mature behaviors that have inhibited us by mid-life. Let go and enjoy! (Within reason of course)
I also feel that in today’s world of high tech gadgets seemingly bringing instant gratification everywhere, many people will lose interest in the old world arts mediums which seem slow to accomplish. The fast technology is easily tempting because it tends to be fast and easily completed. You might try Photoshop or other electronic sketching mediums, but eventually at least sample a return to old world mediums like pastels, Conte Crayon or pencils or oil paints. The techniques to apply them to paper or canvas may at first be testing for you, but as time passes you will improve. You may even feel like a child again! It is believed that many who are active artists sustain the childlike verve for life and thus develop a purpose to live longer. Producing a great piece of artwork can be rejuvenating and rewarding. You will learn fast from your own mistakes. That is part of the fun, believe it or not. This is known as a term championed and possibly coined by Buckminster Fuller. A heuristic process, where the student learns from their own self-initiated investigations. Experiment, play around with your own invented techniques; adventure and discover. The more you produce new works, the more you learn.
Many of the greatest artists have admitted that they were self-taught. Think of it not as a cursive exercise for a class to be graded in but rather an adventure. Many artists know this quite well. That many works turn out to be something entirely different than originally planned. The surprise of accidentally accomplishing a masterpiece, is the greatest reward to oneself as an artist. Once this level is attained, a personal style may emerge. You may have borrowed from other greats and now combined several to develop your own identity in style.
I do not mean to denigrate photographic imagers. I have been there too for many years and just recently returning to hand drawn artwork. This is a process that repeats itself. See the history of great artists who started simple or in say, only photography, to return to hand drawn art later in life. There is a deep seated meaning for this. As digital imaging is everywhere today; this is what I found when I first submitted an artwork to Spaceweather.com. That the public was hungry for real hand drawn art in a world of internet that is oversaturated with digital images. Since October 2006 when I saw a sketch of the solar prominences by Erika Rix and another by Les Cowley, I was hooked to try it. Little did I know that the NASA physicists at Spaceweather and Astronomy Picture of the Day would post my artwork for my simply sending it in. I too originally thought that I was not good enough. An artist will always be his/hers own worst critic that may inhibit ones first step.
I hope that others will soon discover their innate–inborn talents to draw and sketch. It is there for all to discover and learn from.
I look forward to seeing new contributors to the astro-scientific and general visual arts world and the Sketching Forums here at CN. You too may discover one day that it is just waiting for you to take the next step-
The first step is already behind you as we are all born artists,
Mark
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