blandp11
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
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I use Baader Mk. V binoviewer with my scopes. Some of the advantages as I saw them when I choose it over the Denk II:
1) Optical & mechanical quality. While I have not done any comparison tests and didn't want to have to do them, I certainly believe that the optical quality of the prisms and beam spliiter as well as the robostness of the internal alignment is second to none. I wanted top quality optics to go with my top quality scopes. Are some other binoviewers just as good? I do not know, but it is certainly possible (or even likely?).
2) Optical design. The glasspath correctors available for the Baader corrects for "the slight color error and spherical aberration that a prism beam splitter naturally introduces into the light path of all binocular viewers." It was also designed by Roland Christen so I felt confident that it did what it says it does. Additionally, the prisms in the Baader are very large and will provide the most illumination of edges of 24mm Pans for wide field views.
3) Optical quality of accessories in the chain. As part of a high quality optical chain, I wanted to use only top flight optics. For barlow power I use an AP 2" Barcon and could use other top shelf optics (e.g. the Baader Fluorite Flatfield Converter or TV Powermates). I did not feel confident that the quality of the lenses used in the various power switches were necessarily up to snuff. Additionally if I felt I didn't like how the 2" Barcon was performing, I could easily switch it out for something else while in the powerswitch I'm stuck with what's in there.
The Baader Mk.V come with a high quality T-2 prism diagonal and I also use (now mostly) the Baader T-2 Maxbright diagonal.
4) Comes to focus. I knew that the Baader Mk.V would come to focus in the T-2 diagonals with no corrector in place in my telescopes for the widest fields possible.
I knew I was giving up the great convenience of the Denk Power switch for the manual screwing and unscrewing of correctors and extensions in the Baader. I explicitly made that trade-off to try to insure (as best I could) that all the optical components in the chain were top quality. I admit that this is my perception but it is the reasoning I used.
Philip
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Mostly refractors
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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 2496
Loc: Virginia
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Although more to do with convenience than optical quality, I would also give a thumbs up to the T2 system of adapters and quick release rings. I too use a Baader Maxbright diagonal, Prism diagonal, Herschel wedge, and a filter (& multimag) wheel (among other bits like extension tubes, etc.) and the combinations possible allow me to quickly adapt any number of scopes for binoviewer or cyclops use. The interchangeability is great.
But clearly - I would say that my prime motivation for choosing the Baader MarkVs had everything to do with Philip's reasons #1 and #2. My T2 system point was something I came to appreciate later.
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Hooville
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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I use the Baader MkV as well, primarily because of its optical quality. Before binoviewing was cool  I spent quite a bit of time with the original Zeiss binoviewers, then the original Baader through Astro-Physics. I added the Lapides adjustable eyepiece holders to it, nice to have diopter adjustment available. When the MkV was released I upgraded and have been very pleased. I like the self-centering no-mar adjustable eyepiece holders. I don't mind screwing the Barcon into the diagonal -- I am not interested in trading convenience for optical quality with a sliding powerswitch. IIRC, the Denk review in Astronomy mag noted the optical corrector introduced some optical aberrations.
I've had the opportunity to compare the MkV with the inexpensive Chinese binoviewers and the Denks (not the Denk 2). At lower magnification wide field viewing there is not much difference. Where the MkV really pulls away is when you use short focal length eyepieces for high magnification, magnifying the prism aberrations. You can easily see the difference in optical quality under such conditions. Still, the Chinese binoviewers are quite serviceable and have brought binoviewing to a much larger audience, many of whom would not be able to afford the premium units.
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Gus
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
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I also like the T-2 system, a nice surprise.
Philip
Quote:
... I would also give a thumbs up to the T2 system of adapters ...
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Mostly refractors
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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
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That really is the trade-off I did not want to make. My *perception* is that the optical quality of the Mk.V is as good as it gets.
What I don't like about the Baader Mk.V is the diopter adjustment. I find it fiddly and the threads too fine. I wish it moved in and out with fewer turns.
Philip
Quote:
... I am not interested in trading convenience for optical quality with a sliding powerswitch.
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Mostly refractors
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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
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I also considered the TeleVue Binoviewer, but the inability of it to come to focus without using the 2X corrector in my refractors ruled it out for me. I was not willing to give up the lower power views.
One that I did not consider, that has gotten praise by at least one observer is the Vernonscope binoviewer (scroll down). I've never seen one.
Philip
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Mostly refractors
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Doug Culbertson
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 3195
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I was able to try a MkV at the Chiefland star party once, and was very impressed. It was connected to a TMB 105, as I recall, and a Coronado 90mm Ha filter. A view to die for! I would have sprung for a MkV on the spot, but I was told that it wouldn't focus in my dob. So it goes. If Baader or AP ever came out with a 1x corrector that would work in a Newt, I would be highly tempted to fork out the $ for one.
As it was, I ended up with a TV BinoVue for a couple of years, and found it an excellent binoviewer, though at times the 2x corrector was a bit much. I am out of binoviewing for the time being, but the temptation is always there.
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Doug
Midway, FL
14.5" f/4.3 Starmaster/Zambuto w/goto
Orion XT10i w/Ed Stevens Primary
Orion EON 120/CG-5GT
31mm Nagler,13mm Ethos,Leica ASPH Zoom
Antares 1.6x Barlow/50mm Extension
Supercharged WO Binoviewer w/24mm and 12.5mm Ultimas
Mallincam Xtreme
1 Thermacell®
"Yeah, well that's just, like, your opinion, man" - Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski
Life's too short to drink cheap beer - Me
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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
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Good point on the Newtonian compatibility. I use "mostly refractors" and never use the binoviewer in the Newts. If I were shopping for a binoviewer for a big Dob, my choice may have been different.
Philip
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Mostly refractors
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
At lower magnification wide field viewing there is not much difference.
This surprises me just a bit- i'd imagine the larger (largest?) prism unit in these would provide a larger FOV & a better illuminated one than BVers with smaller prisms. I s'pose you'd only note that at the extreme low-mag threshold... the Mk. V able to go lower (wider)?
Quote:
If Baader or AP ever came out with a 1x corrector that would work in a Newt, I would be highly tempted to fork out the $ for one.
Is such a thing in the works? With ANYone? The Denk OCs (my unit) offer a 1.2x & 1.4x "low" switch for Newts, but i went with the 1.4x as the 1.2x type would, by design, intrude farther into the primary light-path; That was a trade-off i was not willing to make... but wouldn't *any* 1.2x (or 1x) OC do this in achieving focus for a Newt? Aside from sawing down poles, is there a way to get a Newt to work with a 1x OC & NOT suffer said intrusion?
I, for one, am thrilled with my Denk II... but i gotta admit, having ones BVer designed by Roland is in the same league as having a top-drawer mirror-grinder cert'ing your primary at 0.98 Strehl... a VERY pleasant feeling of confidence in the product & its performance!
 mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
 Pacheco State Park
 Fremont Peak
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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 2496
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
So it goes. If Baader or AP ever came out with a 1x corrector that would work in a Newt, I would be highly tempted to fork out the $ for one.
As it was, I ended up with a TV BinoVue for a couple of years, and found it an excellent binoviewer, though at times the 2x corrector was a bit much. I am out of binoviewing for the time being, but the temptation is always there.
Well - 2.6x isn't much to crow about but you might enjoy reading this
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Hooville
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 2734
Loc: The Garden State & Ocean State
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Hi Phillip,
Quote:
I did not feel confident that the quality of the lenses used in the various power switches were necessarily up to snuff.
All the other issued you discussed may be true, but the powerswitch lenses are top notch. I sold all my TV barlows as a consequence of getting the Powerswitch diagonal. It's the only magnifier, IMO, that didn't detract from the view. I use the powerswitch diagonal constantly, while my maxbright diagonal is set up on auxiliary scopes. That's not a knock on the Maxbright, BTW, it's just that the Powerswitch is so convenient.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-4 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, AP Maxbright, Denk P/S Diagonal, TMB Supermonos, ZAO IIs, Zeiss Monocentrics, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA, 5mm Pentax XO, and 2.9mm, 4.4mm, 5.9mm, 7.4mm Couture (ball)
Edited by SteveC (09/13/07 12:03 AM)
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
...the powerswitch lenses are top notch...
I don't doubt that at all... in fact, with these higher-end BVers, i imagine its like a lot of OTHER "premium" astro gear- the differences between are so subtle, so minor, that they are truly difficult for most folks (or all?) to *truly* & accurately discern; Any such differences lie delightfully concealed beneath the "noise" of so many other variables- like optical interface with the scope itself, EPs used, product variation throughout ALL of the aforementioned, as well as fluctuating variations in seeing conditions and personal software (eyeballs ). And how much of even these effects are swamped by, perhaps, "personal" mindsets? I'd hate to hazard a guess...
So i try not to get too excited when some person or periodical proposes product superiority or inferiority... yeah, some diff's can be established, yet i can't help but wonder if a lot of what passes for "difference" may, in fact, and in actual field use, be merely personal perception of backgrond noise? And might it be that, even differences that *ARE* routinely discernable (ie. prism size) may very well turn out, in actual USE, to be less significant than might be imagined?
These are merely questions i ponder- having owned/used only Denk II BVers, i cannot say from experience; I'm borrowing from experiences i've gathered concerning *other* realms of astro-gear. But i pose these rambling here as an encouragement to others who may *wish* to enter into & enjoy BVing, yet are hesitant to do so for fear of missing out on the *enjoyment* because they cannot afford a "premium" BVer.
That stated, i *DO* relish hearing of others' personal experiences with their gear, particularly when it has that *objective* hue about it- such "review" material i've found tremendously helpful in helping me refine my OWN stable of astro-gear!
So as one BVer affecionado stated earlier on another thread:
Quote:
What I would call a big "mistake" is not owning a binoviewer and missing out on the amazing views.
 mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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wargentin
member
Reged: 05/04/07
Posts: 43
Loc: France
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I chose the Mark V instead of the Denk II because I have a fast Newtonian (F/4), and I am attracted by high powers.
I have read in a French forum the story of someone who was looking for a good binoviewer for his 12" F/4 telescope. He bought the Denk II with the Newtonian powerswitch. Unfortunately he was disappointed by this unit, which was good only at low powers. At a star party he tested several Denk II on his dob and was disappointed by all of them. He found that the powerswitch was the culprit, because the denk II was excellent behind a powermate. Now he has the Mark V with the 1.7x Newtonian glasspath corrector and he is happy with it.
The manufacturer of my telescope has tested the Mark V on my scope, and was surprised by the difference with his Denk II.
On the other hand, I know that even discriminating observers are very happy with the Denk II and the powerswitch package, but they have a refractor or a long focus telescope. It is possible that with slow instruments the powerswitch is excellent. But it is not the case with fast dobs.
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Fujinion 16x70 FMT SX2
Orion 80ED
Orion 120ED
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wargentin
member
Reged: 05/04/07
Posts: 43
Loc: France
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Quote:
What I don't like about the Baader Mk.V is the diopter adjustment. I find it fiddly and the threads too fine. I wish it moved in and out with fewer turns.
I agree with you. It is so incovenient for me that I never use it, and I prefer pulling one eyepiece to get the correct diopter setting.
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Fujinion 16x70 FMT SX2
Orion 80ED
Orion 120ED
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
At a star party he tested several Denk II on his dob and was disappointed by all of them. He found that the powerswitch was the culprit...
Hmmmm.... very odd, indeed.
My Denk II had been used (quite successfully AFAIC ) for several years in my F10 SCT. Presently, having been outfitted with the 1.4x/2x/2.5x P-x-S Newt package, it serves equally well in my F4.55 Dob.
I have noticed a *little* difference with one set of EPs... but that was them not handling so well the steeper optic- they've since been traded away for LV-Ws that are totally killer in the Denk-Newt combo!
Do the optical components in the P-x-S suddenly fall down at F4? What were the P-x-S factors in the other "borrowed" Denks- 1.2x or 1.4x? Since this user reports satisfaction with a 1.7x OC, perhaps at issue was the EPs used, his own personal tolerance for FC, coma, or other optical issues?
Not sure i'd stretch such single-user, anecdotal, forum-posted, another forum-reported, unknown-condition(s) "story" into a P-x-s culpritizing (is that a word?) determination! 
At some point someone will (hopefully) put together a well-conceived, carefully-executed "shoot-out" between some of these "premium" BVers! Until then, these differences- if they even exist, or are measurably significant- remain tantalizing elusive & unquantified...
mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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wargentin
member
Reged: 05/04/07
Posts: 43
Loc: France
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Quote:
At some point someone will (hopefully) put together a well-conceived, carefully-executed "shoot-out" between some of these "premium" BVers! Until then, these differences- if they even exist, or are measurably significant- remain tantalizing elusive & unquantified...
In my opinion this shoot out has already been made (but not necessarily carefully written, I admit), by several experienced users, who do not rely on subjective feelings, but make star tests at high powers, and use words like astigmatism, chromatic aberration, spherochromatism… and the differences are not elusive.
Quote:
What were the P-x-S factors in the other "borrowed" Denks- 1.2x or 1.4x?
I don't know whether it was 1.2x or 1.4x correctors, I only know it was "newtonian" correctors.
Quote:
My Denk II had been used (quite successfully AFAIC ) for several years in my F10 SCT. Presently, having been outfitted with the 1.4x/2x/2.5x P-x-S Newt package, it serves equally well in my F4.55 Dob.
I have no reason to dismiss your opinion either.
Is there variations in quality among Denk products ?
Has Denkmeier changed the design of the PxS ?
I don't know.
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Fujinion 16x70 FMT SX2
Orion 80ED
Orion 120ED
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
...but not necessarily carefully written, I admit
Once carefully written & presented, whether the methodology was Quote:
well-conceived, carefully-executed...
could be evaluated & weighed by each reader, for their consideration & benefit.
And while i certainly appreciate "subjective feelings", enjoying them quite frequently while out under the heavens, and would not consider it prudent to dismiss them catagorically, it'll also take more than a stellar vocabulary to light my afterburners!  Neither feelings nor intellect, by themselves, really capture the essence of why i spend my time peering into a BVer.
So until such time as a qualitative shoot-out is presented, i shall remain elusively tantalized, and effusively reserved.
mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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I have pondered both the Denk II and the AP Mark V... one of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger yet is to see them first hand... that has been kinda tough. BV's are still in the minority in the field at SP's, from my experiences, and the chance to have an AP lined up next to a Denk II are slim.
One thing I have wondered is will the Mark V be able to work smoothly with all the types of scopes I have? (SCT, Mak Newt, Refractor, Dob, and soon an Mak Cass). I spent a lot of time with Russ / Denk II and was confident the Universal covered the bases. But the AP Docs are the website are a little brief, and only implies that certain EP's won't work...
... those with experience with a Mark V - thoughts? Will the Mark V work out of the box with these scopes? (note: without $500 in extras - I am asking about what's delivered for the $1620 price tag...) I am thinking a Barcon is a must, but that is about all I would add...
Let me know any caveats with the included scope types you may have seen / encountered. Thoughts welcomed.
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ckwastro
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/23/05
Posts: 1192
Loc: Tempe, AZ
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Quote:
BV's are still in the minority in the field at SP's, from my experiences, and the chance to have an AP lined up next to a Denk II are slim.
One thing I have wondered is will the Mark V be able to work smoothly with all the types of scopes I have?
Tim,
I agree. I've seen the Denks lined up with everything but the AP here in AZ. I've never seen a Mark V. I've been waiting to pull the trigger on the Denk Universal Power x Switch for a while, but keep holding off as well in hopes of seeing a Mark V. I think I'll probably end up with the Denks anyway.
From info I've gathered the Mark V would work with most scopes as it does have the glasspath compensators, nosepices, etc., however, I did find out that there is a second 1.7x compensator specifically for Newtonians that also correct for coma and they are $254, rather than the $96 for the standard 1.7x glasspath.
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Kerry
- Astro-Physics 92mm f/7 Stowaway
- Takahashi Mewlon 210
- Denkmeier BV
- Giro III mount
- Brandon, Nagler, Leica single EPs, UO Ortho and Edmund RKE Binoviewer sets
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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I didn't get any answers to my last post from the AP owners... so here is another question.
Have any of the Mark V owners also used / owned a Mark IV in the past? I read about the improvements to the Mark V on the AP site over the Mark IV, but wanted some practical first hand feedback in any differences noted.
Folks on AM are constantly stating on selling that "... Roland still prefers the Mark IV to the Mark V..." as part of the sales pitch. Don't know fact from fiction, maybe they have a "hotline" directly to Roland , or he fed that back via an Yahoo posting?
Thoughts on the Mark IV BV welcomed...
Tim
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