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sparrow
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 1002
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1611470 - 05/18/07 08:33 AM

I wonder about something:

As a general design consideration all else being equal:
Less mag=greater FOV
Smaller Objectives also (often)=greater FOV.

Given these are 6x30s I would have thought they could get 450-500feet at 1000 yards easily. My cheapo $90 Bushnell 8x28 roofs give 417 feet at 1000 yds and in my opinion the optical performance is decent.

Nothing wrong with 420 feet at 1000 yds but given the 6x30 format it's not really record breaking either.

Sparrow


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Rich V.
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 3143
Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: sparrow]
      #1611743 - 05/18/07 11:41 AM

Quote:


Nothing wrong with 420 feet at 1000 yds but given the format it's not really record breaking either.






Agreed, it is almost a record breaker in the wrong direction. Aside from the kid friendly small, compact format and low price, I can't see why I'd want a 6x bin with a 420' FOV when I can look through an 8x bin (the E2) with a 461' FOV. A 1/3 increase in magnification brings out a lot of detail I'd miss otherwise.

A 48° AFOV would be considered quite narrow by most binocular users these days. My 48°-53° AFOV bins don't get much use just because that "tunnel" effect gets in the way of the view for me.

Rich V

--------------------
Binoculars:
33/50/71/150x100 Saturn III, 22x70ED, 16x70 FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 EII, 7x35 E, 8x30 EII,
7x26 Custom, 8x23CF AS Diplomat, 6.5x21 Papilio
Scopes:
C9.25, TMB130SS, SV80S-LOMO 80/480
IDA member


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mooreorless
Just worried


Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1612380 - 05/18/07 06:15 PM

Well Rich,The Nikon 8x30EII is no longer in production,getting hard to find it.Also price point a little different.I agree with what you say,I would grab a 8 E2 anyday before I would grab this 6x30.The eye relief is longer in this Yosemite,so is this why the FOV is not that large?Most people can not see the full field of view through 8x30EII wearing glasses anyway.

--------------------
Regards,Steve M



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Rich V.
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 3143
Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1612633 - 05/18/07 09:11 PM

I agree, Steve, I was just supporting Sparrow's contention that one would expect a 30mm binocular to provide a significantly wider AFOV than the Yosemite does. There may easily be a design standpoint I don't understand about these.

It's too bad that eye relief and AFOV seem to have a reciprocal effect on each other at least in regards to binoculars. I suppose it's a bit unreasonable to expect XW eyepiece performance from a $100. binocular!

Rich V

--------------------
Binoculars:
33/50/71/150x100 Saturn III, 22x70ED, 16x70 FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 EII, 7x35 E, 8x30 EII,
7x26 Custom, 8x23CF AS Diplomat, 6.5x21 Papilio
Scopes:
C9.25, TMB130SS, SV80S-LOMO 80/480
IDA member


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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1612904 - 05/19/07 12:59 AM

<?:?ell Rich,The Nikon 8x30EII is no longer in production,getting hard to find it.Also price point a little different.I agree with what you say,I would grab a 8 E2 anyday before I would grab this 6x30.The eye relief is longer in this Yosemite,so is this why the FOV is not that large?Most people can not see the full field of view through 8x30EII wearing glasses anyway.




STeve,

Long eyecups could prevent someone with deep-set eyes LIKE ME from seeing the entire FOV, but I know you don't have that problem, and the eyecups are twist-ups so you can adjust the ER. The eyecups are not long enough on the Sam for me, I get blackouts unless I hold the EPs back from my eyes.

In any case, the long ER has nothing to do with the FOV. The issue in contention above was with the narrowish APPARENT FOV.

The reason is elementary, my dear Watson (meaning so simple, this mathophobe can figure it out :-). The narrow AFOV is related to the power.
6x with 8* TFOV = 48* AFOV
8x with 8* TFOV = 64* AFOV

Both bins have the same TFOV, but the black space around the 6xs will make the view APPEAR more confining, but if the specs are correct, both bins will show the same FOV.

The Fujinon 6x30 FMTR-SX has a 8.5* FOV, so the AFOV is a little larger (wait a minute, while I get my online calculator.....:-), 51* AFOV. I can see every * by rolling the eyecups down, with them up, and my deep set eyes, I do get a little vignetting, though you probably didn't experience that when you used them with your flatter facial features.

Thanks to the field flatteners, I can move my eyes around the entire wide 8.5* FOV so it doesn't look too confining despite the 51* AFOV.

However, 50* AFOV with a 5* FOV like Celestron 10x50s starts feeling a tunnelesque for me, and it's the chief reason why I sold my 10x50 EDs. I preferred the 60* AFOV of the 12x50 SE, which also had a 5* TFOV.

Everybody's taste is different, but I have been spoiled by the 70* AFOV of the E2 series, because I like feeling "inside the view". However, optically, I would rate the Fuji's image quality slightly higher than the E2.

Brock

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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KennyJ
The British Flash


Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1612980 - 05/19/07 02:49 AM

Just out of interest , I wonder if you 6 X 30 Leupold Yosemite owners could do me a little favour and report your findings back here ?

Looking down through the objective lenses towards the prisms , can you see anything " unusual " about the edges of the prisms ?

Thanks in advance ,

Kenny

--------------------


Milton Wilcox R.I.P






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mooreorless
Just worried


Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1613408 - 05/19/07 12:27 PM

Hi Kenny,I got on here late today.I just checked this 6x30 Yosemite and there is what looks like a little prism intrusion of the light path in mine.I will try to take a picture of it later,but don't hold your breath,I find it hard to take these close ups with my camera.:-)

--------------------
Regards,Steve M



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mooreorless
Just worried


Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1615119 - 05/20/07 12:17 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

Here is picture of Yosemite from right objective side.Sorry for the bad image.

Attachment

--------------------
Regards,Steve M



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ngc6475
Fearless Spectator


Reged: 03/02/02
Posts: 5024
Loc: 38°21'N 120°55'W
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1615132 - 05/20/07 12:25 PM

It looks like the prism is blocking a tiny portion of the light path, Steve. Your Yosemite Sam is losing an insignificant amount of light as a result of the intrusion, in my opinion. It is quite likely not a noticable loss.

--------------------
Walter

"There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls."
-George Carlin



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mooreorless
Just worried


Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: ngc6475]
      #1615148 - 05/20/07 12:47 PM

Walter,I agree with you.I have used this Leupold 6x30 Yosemite against another brand 6x and there really was not a lot of difference,in fact I thought the FOV was wider in the Yosemite.You know looking at this,it is almost like I would like to open this binocular and grind the little bit of protrusion. Even if I could it wouldn't make any or much difference.

--------------------
Regards,Steve M



Edited by mooreorless (05/20/07 12:51 PM)


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DblVision
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Louisiana
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: ngc6475]
      #1615243 - 05/20/07 01:34 PM

We spent nearly an hour yesterday evening at the counter of the local Academy sporting goods store with a 6x Sam, a Nikon 7x35 Action, and an 8x Sam. The goal was to return home with at least one pair for use by our 9-year old & the Wife. (The 12-yr old is always behind the PCF's while I "claim" the Swifts.) We came home empty-handed.

The single 6x Sam in the store had a good hand feel, nice retractable eyecups (without stops, however)and worked for both the eyeglass wearing Wife and the hawkeye 9-yr old. Unfortunately, it had what I consider unacceptable lash in the focusing wheel. In addition, sharpness fell off very quickly starting about 50% out. I recall that the diopter adjustment was hard to decipher, with no readily apparent markings.

The 8x Sam was surprising in that I could still see nearly the entire field. Focusing movement was better, but the 9-yr old in a kidney bean / blackout test noted that slight crescent-shaped darkness occurred when instructed to "Roll your eyes around to check the field".

My Wife noted that the Actions were actually comparable to the Sams. The Action's fold-down eyecups were a big negative, knowing that deployment is too tedious when switching bins between users for our type of fast-paced, "Look at that!" backyard birding.

The youngest wanted the 6x Sams NOW. She didn't mind that I considered their "Natural" color hideous. At the end of delivering a long-winded "No" that involved a discussion of sharpness and also questions about what should be expected of such inexpensive optics, my Wife suggested "Put the question on Cloudy Nights and see what they have to say". Once we left the store I commented that, given the fact that all of us here find the 7x50 PCF's very easy to use and very sharp, the newer 8x40 model should be considered more closely. No sense in buying something that will quickly be found wanting as the user's skill level and demands develop ? ("What is good enough?" all over again)

As to expectations for sub C-note bins; Am I being too harsh? Any comments appreciated.

--------------------
Neal

G.O. Sig 10.5x70
Swift 761 8X42
60mm Spotter


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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: DblVision]
      #1615327 - 05/20/07 02:21 PM

Steve M. could answer your questions better than I, so let me start off with a modified Kennyism, "I only used these binoculars briefly, but that will not stop me from commenting on them in depth." :-)

Seriously, the blackouts were deal breaker for me, I had to rest the twist-up cups on the bridge of my nose and tilt my head back to get the "right" ER, which was not that comfortable or steady.

I liked the ergonomics, and Steve has the black version, so the aesthetics were fine.

From what you said about the edge performance, either Steve has an exceptional sample or the one you tried was under par. I don't recall where the edges fell off exactly (I noted some field curvature at the edges but not enough to be distracting like the 8x32 Jap. Noble and 8x32 Jap. Ultima.

If it fell off at 50%, I think I would have noticed it. Keep in mind that focus accommodation falls off as you get older, so that's part of the reason why people report differences in edge sharpness for the same bin, the other is sample variation. Since you have small kids, your eyes are probably too young to be an issue, so I'd have to go with sample variation.

The Action EX series may be more to your liking, it has twist-up eyecups, with click-stops. The sharpness on the 12x50 EX I had fell off at about 60% off axis, better than what you reported with the 6x Sam, but not enough for my 70% standard. Less than that 70% for me, and I the "fuzz" starts to intrude into the view while panning.

Is the new 8x40 PCF WP II what you are referring to? or the PCF WP? I found the PCF WP a bit bulky and heavy, so it may not be suitable for the kids. The PCF V's were lighter and at least two others besides myself reported the images were sharper in the same model PCF V than the PCF WP. Could be sample variation.

Have you tried the 8x40 Leupold Mesa? I tried one at Wal-Mart, I liked it, nice feel, didn't care for the "nibs" on the eyecups and focuser, which will undoubtedly break off in time, but otherwise, I liked it, however, I didn't do a critical test in the store. "In the field", I might get a different impression.

The Mesas seemed light enough and compact enough for kids, though I'm not sure about the IPD adjustment. When you have twist-up eyecups, it eats up the space between the occulars, so while the listed IPD may seem okay, the two oversized twist-up eyecups could be crunching a young child's nose since their IPD is so small.

Did the store have a nikon 8x36 Monarch? Dick's Sporting Goods has one, I went there yesterday to try it, but there was only one person in the hunting dept., and he was busy refilling metal bottles, perhaps for air powered pellet guns since kids were waiting for him.

John Cota recently bought (and sold) an 8x36 Monarch. He may be able to give you more info, if roofs are an option for you. The size and weight would be good for the kids, not sure about the IPD.

Brock

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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mooreorless
Just worried


Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: DblVision]
      #1615980 - 05/20/07 08:49 PM

Hi Neal,I just checked the focuser on my Yosemite and there is no lash,by that I mean when I move focuser the bridge moves right away,forward or backward.My eyecups hold when pushed part way down,I only ever used them all the way up or down.As far as the ER and black outs,I naturally hold these like I do my Swarovski 7x30 SLC,with the top against my eyebrow and the binocular hinged out at the bottom some.The eyecups would be better with longer lenght to them[as well as the Swarovski].I have thought of adding something to the end but don't really have that much trouble.I never tried to measure how far out the sharpness falls off,always seemed ok,even in the night sky,much better than the Nikon 7x35 Action that I have.The diopter setting really doesn't have any true markings and might be a problem for some people because of limited adj.It sounds like the sample you looked through is not on the level of my two samples that I had and have.I think you should try out the Pentax 8x40 before you buy,as well as your nine year old.:-) Good Luck.

--------------------
Regards,Steve M



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DblVision
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Louisiana
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1617365 - 05/21/07 03:18 PM

Thanks Brock & Steve:

Am under the weather here, so brief. Judging by the way the 9-yr old reacted to the Sams, by the fact that I might be off about the 50% number, and the otherwise good reports seen, the Sams are still at the top of the heap. The sharpness on axis was very pleasing. Will check out some other local sources and resort to mail order if we must.

--------------------
Neal

G.O. Sig 10.5x70
Swift 761 8X42
60mm Spotter


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mooreorless
Just worried


Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: DblVision]
      #1617424 - 05/21/07 03:55 PM

Neal,I hope you are feeling better.:-)

--------------------
Regards,Steve M



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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1617434 - 05/21/07 04:01 PM

Quote:

Neal,I hope you are feeling better.:-)




Ditto that, and I hope you get a good sample, which will make you feel better!

Brock

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1618367 - 05/22/07 01:01 AM

Report from Dick's Sporting Goods and Mismatched Sneakers:

Went to Dick's SG&MS today. The sporting good's salesman was giving a very large, middle aged woman a fishing license application (w/ trout stamp) -

She can bring home the trout (ba, BA, ba, BA)
Dip it in lard from the drippin's can (ba, BA, ba, BA)
Throw it in the skillet (ba, BA, ba, BA)
Go out and do her shopping (ba, BA, ba, BA)
and be back before it melts in the pan (ba, BA, ba, BA)
'Cause she's a fisherwoman
F I S H E R W O M A N
Can't say it again

When he was finished with the fisherwoman, I asked to see the Nikon 9x25 Prostaff and 8x36 Monarch.

Some quick suppressions:

Monarch -- Nice size for kids and the missus, Neal (unless she's as big the fisherwoman), good ergonomics even for my freakishly large hands, as Kenny would say, surprisingly heavy feeling for only 23 oz. but I liked the weight and balance to help steady the shakes. In fact, I liked the ergonomics better than my 8x32 LX (did I really just say that?!).

The optics, however, were disappointing, the little Prostaff inverted nipple porros with their tiny 2.7mm exit pupil were actually BRIGHTER and sharper than the 8x36 Monarch, and despite being a roof, which usually gives you a size larger image scale than a 8x porro, the Prostaff's image scale was even larger than 9x due to its very close objectives.

The edges were fair to poor, as Todd Gross might say. The colors seemed okay, but not vibrant. Then I stepped out from behind the aisle of fishing tackle where the F I S H E R W O M A N was testing 20 lb. MUSTAD test line with her teeth and looked at the sneakers on the other side of the store in the sneaker dept.

The image was a bit soft despite the fact that the Monarch's are phase coated (said so right on the box, and also "Made in China"). I went to adjust the right diopter and the plastic ring surrounding the ridged metal diopter came right off. I quickly slipped it back on and left the binoculars on the counter. (Whistling sounds go here)

Nikon 9x25 Prostaff: The edges were a bit better in that the fall off was more gradual, but the sweet spot was about the same, maybe a little larger. Overall, the images were crisper, brighter, and more color vibrant. The ergonomics left something to be desired, namely something to grip with my big mitts. Small kids would probably be okay with this short, sharpely tapered nose bin, maybe even small handed women, but not this guy or the F I S H E R W O M A N, the images were flappin' like a fish out of water. Made in Japan for Japanese hands.

The prices: $259 for the Monarchs. $195 for the Prostaff. Both are overpriced, IMNSHO.

Conclusion: Look for a better sample 6x30 Yosemite Sam, but if the wife's using it also, make sure she doesn't get the dreaded blackouts or ask Steve M. to teach her the "upper eyebrow technique."

I didn't have much time left after that exhaustive test, but I badly needed a pair of sneakers so I went over to the sneaker dept. and looked at what was on sale for under 50 bucks. Saw a style New Balance similar to the one I have, which is comfortable, but worn down to my heel spurs.

I also saw a sneaker/hiker and since I do go hiking with LOUDO and have to wear my heavy, monster sized Herman Munster boots, the sneaker/hiker hybrid appealed to me, but unfortunately, they didn't have it in size 12 1/2 or 13. I tried on a 14, but it was too large, but good for water skiing.

So then I tried on the pair that was similar in design to the old worn 428s (473s), the right sneaker felt good, but the left one was tight. The salesman checked the label, it was a size 12! A mismatched pair. He apparently didnt care to check all the 12 sizes in the back to see if there was a size 13 model 473 lurking inside a size 12 box, but just said that I'd have to wait for the next shipment from China, which could come in tomorrow or in two months, depending on the trade winds. I realized that this guy wasn't on commission, and it was getting late so I had to leave with my tread worn sneakers and heel spurs.

They also had the NB 999 for $119 (made in USA, all the rest are made in China or Korea). The 999 was the same one I used to buy for $69 back when it was only a 666. I tried one on the last time I was at the store, but it wasn't as comfortable as my old 666, said the Beast.

LOUDO will be waking me up in a few hours so I'll have to end this TAIL of woe, but my advice is to stick with Leupold where the binoculars are always greener except the Sams, which are black, natural (natural what?), and red. Kids like red.

Brock, a fisher of W O M A N
I'll say it again,
but not now, 'cause I'm living in Little Belize where the dog barks before the rooster crows

Dr. Scholl

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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KennyJ
The British Flash


Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1618471 - 05/22/07 02:40 AM

< I went to adjust the right diopter and the plastic ring surrounding the ridged metal diopter came right off. >

Brock ,

Due to the meandering nature of your writing of this most entertaining of reports , I was unsure about which of the two models previewed you were refering to in the above .

But when the following paragraph began with this :

=== < Nikon 9x25 Prostaff: The edges were a bit better in that the fall off was more gradual > ---

I presume a plastic ring fell off BOTH models , but it fell off the Prostaff 9 x 25 " more gradually " .

Would I be correct in that interpretation ?

Regards , Kenny

--------------------


Milton Wilcox R.I.P






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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1619007 - 05/22/07 11:57 AM

Quote:

< I went to adjust the right diopter and the plastic ring surrounding the ridged metal diopter came right off. >

Brock ,

Due to the meandering nature of your writing of this most entertaining of reports , I was unsure about which of the two models previewed you were refering to in the above .

But when the following paragraph began with this :

=== < Nikon 9x25 Prostaff: The edges were a bit better in that the fall off was more gradual > ---

I presume a plastic ring fell off BOTH models , but it fell off the Prostaff 9 x 25 " more gradually " .

Would I be correct in that interpretation ?

Regards , Kenny




Oh, you're a riot Alice, you're a riot all right -- BANG, ZOOM! In case you REALLY were confused by my meandering, the "edges" refers to the edge performance of the optics not the edge of diopter ring covers. The fall off in sharpness off-axis is more gradual on the Prostaff.

As with our previous discussion about edge performance on the Zeissman FL thread, I find fuzzy edges that fall off gradually less distracting than those that are sharp to a point and then totally blur 1/2* farther out, as if you had extreme myopia and suddenly took off your glasses.

The diopter ring on the Prostaff is not a very ergonomic design, just a thin plastic ring with a tiny lever. Unlike the Monarchs, I didn't need to adjust the the diopter when changing focus from near to far, but I tried using it just to see how it worked, and it was quite stiff and the little nib of a lever is a bit too dainty for my fingers. It's hard enough to hold the compact Prostaff steady, but then searching for and turning the tiny ring made it hard to focus with a whole lotta shakin' goin' on.

For kids or users with small hands, this may not be an issue but for "tall or large" men, and women with manhands like the fisherwoman and Seinfeld's lobster crackin' date, it could be problematic.

I hope that clears things up. Now if I can find my Clear Eyes, I can clear my eyes up (pollen's coming down like Yellow Rain). As Ben would say, "Wooooow."

Brock, the Taller

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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DblVision
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Louisiana
Re: 6x30 Yosemite as a birding binocular? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1624296 - 05/24/07 10:33 PM

Hi Guys:

I'd mentioned the Pentax 8x40's in their "latest incarnation" due to the fact that our old 7x50's (Simply marked "PCF") are, to me, optically satisfying. The big PCF's, however, are no joy to the neck and are bulky in hand. I also see that on CN the newer models are of different sourcing with quality differences also noted. All of this came up when we "rediscussed" the Pentax models. While our 12-yr old has mastered the PCF's (Only her middle finger reaches the focus wheel), the youngest greatly enjoys the smaller & lighter Swifts. So do I. The 8x40's were therefore out. Given that the Wife and youngest both found favor with the 6x Sams, the original decision favoring them was upheld.

In line with the suggestion of getting a better sample, the Wife checked other local sources by phone. "Naw, we don't carry Leah-Pole b'nokqlrs" summarizes the replies. She chuckled at that.

Therefore, a 6x Sam is on order from SWFA, for 80 bucks and free shipping. Best thing is that they are from our next door friends in the Republic of Texas. Hope that Sam is the the roughest, toughest hombre from "around" the Rio Grandy, and ain't no namby-pamby.

--------------------
Neal

G.O. Sig 10.5x70
Swift 761 8X42
60mm Spotter


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