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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< It sounds like your son is well on his way to developing a keen interest in the natural world. Don't burden him with equipment that is inappropriate for what he is doing >
Sparrow ,
Thank you for stating in such a forthright manner what I just couldn't find the heart or words to describe when I caught up with this thread last night .
However , considering the ecstatic support of astro equipment solutions previously expressed in this thread , and the total lack of acknowledgment of my important point about waterproofing , I fear your sage advice may fall on deaf ears ! :-)
Regards
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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mooreorless
Just worried
Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
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Hi Sparrow, I used to have a B&L Elite 15x45x60mm spotter like the one on this EO site, but of course it is called Bushnell now, only weighs 26 oz. I sold it a couple years ago, it wasn't phase/coated or anything but even Brock thought it was very clear. Now I wished I didn't sell it.A scope like that would be very nice for this young fellow.:-)
I forgot to say for a 60mm spotter 15x-45X is a good magnification range. I have a EXT 90 RA and have used it for a long range spotter and off it's mount is weighs about 50 oz. with eyepiece and works ok , but will NOT stand up to day to day use, and is not wp. I have had trouble with the "flip" mirror assy. etc.
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Regards,Steve M
Edited by mooreorless (11/13/07 05:08 AM)
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medinabrit
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 854
Loc: medina ohio USA.
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Sport out the money & get him the Pentax 63mm or the 65pf ed These are exellent scopes & he can use all your 1.25 EP,s
You could spend double & not get a better scope.
Brian.
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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More excellent and thought-provoking advice!
I know that ultimately, I will be getting him something quite excellent - this passion of his is now 2 years old (you should have seen him when he found out he'd get to go birding with David Sibley's son, *and* meet David Sibley! - he and his best friend, also a birder, were, quite literally, vibrating with the excitement that only 11 year old boys with a passion can muster!).
I know my WO66 is NOT waterproof, doesn't have a case, and isn't correct-image... but it does have the virtue of being FREE (as long as I can live w/o it). All the ED purpose-built spotting scopes I can find, and that have been pointed out to me, are above $500... - a loonnng way from free...
I can live w/o it for quite a while: IF I can get the f/ of my ED100Sf down to 7, or preferably 6 with a FR/FF.
If I miss it a lot, then I'll just have to plump for a good purpose-designed ED birding scope such as the Pentax, or other(s) - with cover, waterproof, etc... and take back my WO66 (I'm not too worried he'll ruin it, as I noted, he has taken very good care of his 10x50s that I got him 2 years ago) - he is my responsible son... now the 7 year old 
I am very thankful to you all for all the advice and pointers here, though! I'd have never thought of using the WO66 to begin with...
It does appear that, as with astronomy, nothing is dead-simple for birding either!
clear skies
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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As many folks around here will probably know , I've spent a lot of time looking AT , or rather THROUGH spotting scopes of various quality and price .
I have to agree with Brian ( Medinabrit ) -- for the money , AND almost UNIQUE versality , due to the eyepiece options , one of those Pentax 65mm ED scopes takes some beating .
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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snorkler
Aperture Aficionado
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 10041
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Birders face the same financial compromises that astronomers do, and many of them make uninformed and/or poor choices in purchasing their equipment. The Eagle Optics website referenced by Sparrow lists a number of low-end achromatic, non-waterproof spotting scopes.
It's good that you brought up the topic of waterproof scopes, as that should be discussed. I birded for 40 years with cheap non-waterproof binoculars. Once in a while, they'd fog, but I always managed to dry them out in the sun eventualy.
It wasn't until I got caught in a torrential 45 minute downpour in Costa Rica, and feared I'd have to drive back to San Jose to buy a pair of Swarovskis (the only upper-echelon binoculars available in the country) to continue my trip, that I was sold on waterproof birding optics. Now, I own both waterproof binoculars and a waterproof scope.
But the budget limits set by the OP and the age of his son effectively eliminate the waterproof ED scopes that I'd recommend for someone like myself.
The scopes that serious birders use include $2000 Leicas, Swarovskis, and Zeiss scopes, $1700 Nikons, and $800 Pentaxes and Kowas. They're waterproof and apochromatic. For $300-400, you give up waterproofing, but you can get ED glass and good views with astronomical scopes.
I mentioned the Pentax PF-65ED in my original post. It's $550 and is waterproof and apochromatic. But its zoom eyepiece gives much poorer views than the larger and heavier zoom eyepiece in the PF-80ED (unless I'm confusing it with the PF-63).
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I'm not the lowest of the low, but I am the slowest of the slow. '06 Scion xB. 49.6 mpg avg over 38,000 miles. 177% of '08 EPA
Best flat drive 94.5 mpg for 10.1 mi
Longest tank 1033 km (642 mi) on 10.56 gal = 60.8 mpg
Edited by snorkler (11/13/07 10:14 AM)
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Thanks again for all this wonderful discussion. I do worry about weather/wetness; as he does more and more birding, there is likely going to be occasions when New England weather doesn't cooperation ("ya think!?")...
I do like the idea of the Pentax PF65ED (in either the straight through or 45 degree Amici version) - but at an incremental spend of $550-$595, not including any EPs, I think that is just too big a first step (both features/quality, AND investment) for an 11 year-old. Yeah - he could use my 25 Plossl (making only 16x) but that's clearly sub-optimal versus a zoom, or wider/better EPs (at $100 each or more)... basically this would be about an $800+ investment, loaded.
That said, I'll probably put it on the "maybe next year" (if the grades stay up, and the maturity and attitude keep improving, etc.)... Nothing like "motivation" for ones child!
I think what I'm most likely to do is to get the WO 45 degree Amici (sinc a 2" Dielectric Star Diagonal is SO OVERKILL for him and birding! and I need it anyway!)... to aid in his "ease of use" of the WO66.
And, at least until further notice - it'll be a "fair weather" spotting scope (since we're just heading into winter time, he's not going to want to be out in cold rain anyways)... and I can make or acquire a weatherproof spotting scope next years decision/investment...
 Anyone know of a waterproof "cover" for WO66???
Also, in interest of full disclosure, I am HOPING that his interest in Birding, draws him optically into my interest in Astronomy - he's borderline right now, and maybe this can assist in moving him "over the top" into my madness!
Or, who knows, maybe HE will pull ME into birding??? In which case the justification for the premium spotting scope gets easier, doesn't it?
Again, thanks for all the great information!
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Or, who knows, maybe HE will pull ME into birding??? In which case the justification for the premium spotting scope gets easier, doesn't it? >
NOW you're showing your TRUE motives , Dave ! :-)
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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mooreorless
Just worried
Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
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I posted this on BirdForum without the link and I think it is an interesting read. http://www.6mmbr.com/spotterreview.html
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Regards,Steve M
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
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Quote:
However , considering the ecstatic support of astro equipment solutions previously expressed in this thread , and the total lack of acknowledgment of my important point about waterproofing , I fear your sage advice may fall on deaf ears ! :-)
Regards
Kenny
When I read the point about waterproofing, I thought it was a good one but I also thought I didn't need to add to it... But in any event, here's some awknowledgement:
The importance of waterproofing depends on where you live and how dedicated you are. I know people who live in the Eastern US who use astro-scopes for birding. I happen to live in San Diego where waterproofing is of no importance. I am sure in England, Waterproofing is a necessity.
I also think that fact that the OP is someone coming from the astro-side to birding is relevant as there is already equipment and understanding. As it turned out, the equipment was already there and waiting...
Jon
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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That was a great link and read, Steve - thanks!
Jon hit it about right: I can have him use (for now) my WO66 for next to nothing: I contacted WO and found out which of their 45 Amici's is designed to work best with the Wo66 - turns out they have one for $68.
So, for a total investment of $68, my son gets to use my Wo66 and my existing 10 and 25 Plossls...
It won't be waterproof, but I think (for now) he can live with that. He's pretty responsible, and this is the next "test" in the rungs of that particular ladder - a test that doesn't put TOO much $$ on the line...
Heaven help me if *I* succumb to yet another hobby; though there are certainly worse things in the world...
Now, if only I could PRY my 7 1/2 year old AWAY from the silly Wii... He does have *some* interest in birding, mostly 'cause older bro does right now!
Thanks again, everyone! Again, I'd have NEVER thought of the WO without y'all suggesting astro scopes, etc.!
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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snorkler
Aperture Aficionado
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 10041
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Like I said, a win-win situation  Birding was a great hobby when I found myself working in places like Hong Kong, Spain, Germany, and Israel. Instead of staying in my hotel room listening to television that I didn't understand, I got out and walked in parks and saw new birds.
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I'm not the lowest of the low, but I am the slowest of the slow. '06 Scion xB. 49.6 mpg avg over 38,000 miles. 177% of '08 EPA
Best flat drive 94.5 mpg for 10.1 mi
Longest tank 1033 km (642 mi) on 10.56 gal = 60.8 mpg
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IDONTSEEIT
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/04/03
Posts: 969
Loc: NYC
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Hi Dave,
I've used my "66" for terrestrial study, on several occasions, and it works great for that, but it's a bit on the heavy side for shouldering while on a tripod IMHO.
However, I have the 67mm and 82mm angled ED versions of these Vixen spotting scopes(on closeout) and they are pretty decent. The 67ED-A angled model is $512, that's with a zoom ep & case, quite a deal IMHO. They're very light, and do quite well with a white-light solar filter that also fits on the 66s
Happy birding,
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Joe,
C8 OTA on UA Unistar Heavy Deluxe
SV-102V on same UA Unistar Heavy Deluxe(not at the same time)
WO-Megrez 80-II ED on UA Microstar Basic
Orion 80ED on same UA Microstar Basic(also not at the same time)
Miyauchi Bs-60ic "Pleiades" 22X60
Orion UltraView 10X50's
Orion MiniGiants 12X63 & 15X63
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sparrow
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 1002
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Quote:
The importance of waterproofing depends on where you live and how dedicated you are. I know people who live in the Eastern US who use astro-scopes for birding. I happen to live in San Diego where waterproofing is of no importance. I am sure in England, Waterproofing is a necessity.
Jon
Jon I think you are reading the term "waterproofing" too literally.
I read "waterproofing" to simply mean sealed against water, dust, sand, grit etc. I live in a wet area where rain is common and I have seen many more problems from dust rather than actual rain.
A good spotting scope is a field instrument. There is a reason a decent spotter has the prism, focus mechanism and optics within a robust sealed unit.
As you know I'm well familiar with spotters and astro scopes. But I have also been a keen birder now for almost 40 years. I have personally, within two days, reduced a TV 85 to rubbish using it out in real field conditions. If by "birding" all you mean is setting it up 50 feet from your car on some nice observation deck then you should be fine. Drag that scope through brush, swamp, the sand and grit of shorebirding etc and you are asking for trouble.
Take my word for it. I've seen what actual field conditions can do to a delicate prism, extension tube and an exposed focus mechanism. It's not a pretty sight.
There is a difference between "birding" and bird observation. By the sound of it this young man is a "birder" not a bird observer.
If it was me and I couldn't spend the money on a decent scope I'd get him a nice 8x32 pair of bins so he wouldn't be lugging around those clumsy 10x50s. There are many for under 300 bucks. Decent binos are much more essential to birding than a scope.
Sparrow
Nikon Action non EX 7x35
Zeiss "Classic" 7x42
Bushnell Excursion 8x28
Leica BA 8x32
Nikon Action non EX 10x50
Pentax 12x50
Orion Mini Giant 15x63
Pentax 80mm ED spotter
Astro Tech 80mm f/7/560mm APO triplet
Pentax 100mm ED spotter
Celestron 102mm f/5/500mm "Wide View" achro
Orion 120mm f/8.3/1000mm achro
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Excellent points, Sparrow, and exactly why I appreciate ALL the advice and pointers given thus far.
I'm able to "test" his ability to take care of expensive equipment in a reasonably controlled fashion, prior to spending the large coin on what is REALLY what he ULTIMATELY wants...
We are blessed to live on over 300 acres that are shared amongst 20 houses, with 200 acres reserved as conservation (3 beaver ponds, several meadows, deep pine, mixed and deciduous meadows) all about 1/2 mile from about 1000 acres of orchards - basically a bird paradise...
So, he will be using the WO right here at home for the NEAR future... maybe next year, we can upgrade him to something purpose-designed, with all the benefits appurtenant thereto...
Intellectually, I completely agree with your logic; but from a funding, and perhaps more importantly, maturity standpoint on this decision - I like the fact that I can "wait just a bit more" til pulling the big-bucks, premium equipment lever...
PS: he's thrilled to do it this way (he was out until quite literally the last photons of twilight in our backyard last night!)... Then carefully closed the tripod, and carried the whole unit back inside.
clear skies
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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RJM
super member
Reged: 03/28/07
Posts: 162
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dave, if you stumble across an ole set of 10x80 flak binos in decent shape the boy will be in awl, 7 deg wide 3d panoramic views, IMHO there are very few better for observing wildlife, 45 deg comfort, bomb proof, sorta like the energiser bunny of binos, hours and hours of viewing in rain and snow conditions and they keep on tickin :}
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
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Quote:
Take my word for it. I've seen what actual field conditions can do to a delicate prism, extension tube and an exposed focus mechanism. It's not a pretty sight.
There is a difference between "birding" and bird observation. By the sound of it this young man is a "birder" not a bird observer.
If it was me and I couldn't spend the money on a decent scope I'd get him a nice 8x32 pair of bins so he wouldn't be lugging around those clumsy 10x50s. There are many for under 300 bucks. Decent binos are much more essential to birding than a scope.
Sparrow
Sparrow: Some very good points. I have found my Astro-scopes suitable for hiking etc but I am sure you are much more serious about it than I am and put your equipment through a much rougher experience...
And too, a good pair of birding binoculars is important. The good close focus of 5 or 6 feet is nice to have if one has a bird right there in the bush.
Jon
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ericjacob613
Photon Hog
Reged: 05/25/07
Posts: 5177
Loc: Santa Barbara CA
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The Celestron C102 spotting scope is about $200. I use mine for astrophotography too. Actually I have two.
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Y'all look at my flikr stuff:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42129623@N04/
Canon XTI with 100,000 clicks on it, cheap Asian glass.
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