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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO
      #3118342 - 05/21/09 08:29 AM

So last night i was finally able to put polaris in the little circle of the polar scope.

The weight end went up and the scopes virtually down.

I selected Vega, and the mount started to slew... banging my C6 on the tripod leg and then mis-aligning it of course.

I removed the eyepiece from my Tak and diagnol from my C6 to make space, selected next star and same thing. One of the ends of my C6 would end up banging the tripod leg.

So i thought, possibly the default position is weight end down, scopes up. This time polaris was not in the little circle of the polar scope, but same hour position as the polarfinder software provided.

I selected Vega again, this time the mount moved in more desireable location. Right near Vega, but off target.

I am not sure what and where I am doing wrong. But seems like the default position should be weight end down.

Any ideas?

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D

Edited by chitown (05/21/09 08:31 AM)


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neptun2
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Reged: 03/04/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Bulgaria
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118368 - 05/21/09 08:47 AM

First i recommend you to make the polar alignment as described in astro baby's webpage:
http://www.adur-astronomical.com/HEQ5/HEQ5-1.htm

I know that it is for sirius and not Atlas but the polar scope should be the same and differences are not big i hope. After you finish with setting the date and time using the setting circles and you managed to put polaris into the circle using the azimuth and altitude adjustment you have pointed correctly to the north celestial pole.Now all you need to do is to release the ra index scale lock and the RA and DEC locks and manually slew the scope to it's home position as described in the user manual of synscan. Then tighten again the RA and DEC locks and continue with alignment following the instructions in the user manual. I recommend you to make 3-star alignemnt and to use reticle eyepiece to center the stars better or if you do not have reticle eyepiece use eyepiece with narrow FOV. You can also slightly defocus the star to make it bigger and easier to center.

Edit: Polaris needs to be in the circle only in the beginning when you make polar alignment. The idea here is to calculate using the setting circles where should polaris be at the day and time when you are making the polar alignment. Polaris is not at north celestial pole but near it. The polar scope is made in such way that when polaris is in the circe the mount is pointing to the NCP. So if your calculation with the setting circles for the psition of polaris is correct and you put it into the circle then your mount is pointing to the NCP and only if you touch the azimuth or altitude adjustment or your tripod is moved your polar alignment will be broken. So do not worry that after the polar alignment polaris will no more be in the circle.This is not problem.

Edited by neptun2 (05/21/09 08:58 AM)


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rdegoutier
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Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 123
Loc: White Rock, BC, Canada
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118380 - 05/21/09 08:53 AM

After putting Polaris in the correct position on the circle (this gets the mount aligned with the NCP), you need to set the scope so that it is (roughly) pointed at the NCP. This would be with the weight end straight down and the OTA in line with the polar scope.

From your position, last night at 9:30 PM, Polaris should have been just about at the top of the circle, or 12:00 position. If you have a Synscan HC, it should give you Polaris position after you complete setup.

--------------------
Sometimes I sits and thinks; sometimes I just sits.



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chitown
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Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: neptun2]
      #3118384 - 05/21/09 08:56 AM

This part i do not understand:

"Now all you need to do is to release the ra index scale lock and the RA and DEC locks and manually slew the scope to it's home position as described in the user manual of synscan. Then tighten again the RA and DEC locks and continue with alignment following the instructions in the user manual"

Can you explain step by step..

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D


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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118388 - 05/21/09 08:58 AM

Not getting this part, please explain to me:

"you need to set the scope so that it is (roughly) pointed at the NCP. This would be with the weight end straight down and the OTA in line with the polar scope. (It cant be, as if i move the RA to move scopes, polaris will move away from the circle of the polar scope reticle.)

AND

If you have a Synscan HC, it should give you Polaris position after you complete setup."

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D

Edited by chitown (05/21/09 09:00 AM)


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neptun2
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/04/07
Posts: 580
Loc: Bulgaria
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118397 - 05/21/09 09:06 AM

Ok i will try to be more precise. ILook at his page:
http://www.adur-astronomical.com/HEQ5/HEQ5-3.htm

This is the final step of plar align which you make on the field. Read carefully the "Align to plaris part" of this page. After you have done this just release the RA index scale lock, manually slew the scope to it's home position as described in user manual, tighten the RA and DEC locks and follow the instructions in user manual to make the 3-star align.

--------------------
Photo: Sony NEX-5N + 18-15 , Nikon D90 modified, Meade DSI Pro 2 as guider, TS 9mm off-axis guider
Binoculars: Nikon Action 12x50
Telescopes: Skywatcher Evostar 120ED f7.5 APO + TS 2" flattener
Mounts: HEQ5 Pro
Eyepieces: Nagler 11mm type6, Pentax XW 7mm, Televue 2X barlow 1.25"



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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 21117
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118419 - 05/21/09 09:11 AM

Step 1: Make sure that you start with home position, scope pointed north, counterweights straight down.
Step 2: Align the polar scope by moving the RA axis until Polaris aligns in the circle, adjusting with the Alt/Az adjustments.
Step 3: Return the scope to HOME position.
Step4: Do 2 stars on one side of the meridian and the third star on the other side. This takes care of cone error. Use a high power eyepiece, preferably a reticle eyepiece.

Now, enjoy your gotos!

David

--------------------
Money can't buy happiness, but it sure makes misery easier to live with.



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rdegoutier
super member


Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 123
Loc: White Rock, BC, Canada
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118420 - 05/21/09 09:12 AM

Quote:

Not getting this part, please explain to me:

"you need to set the scope so that it is (roughly) pointed at the NCP. This would be with the weight end straight down and the OTA in line with the polar scope.

AND

If you have a Synscan HC, it should give you Polaris position after you complete setup."




When you align the mount, you are setting its axis to point to true north. This is done with the OTA in horizontal position. Once this step is completed, loosen the clutches and slew the telescope so that it is pointed (roughly) to Polaris or the NCP. Weight bar will be pointing down, OTA will be on the top, and your OTA and Polar Scope will be pointing in the same direction. This is called the Park position, and you must start from this position before beginning aligment.

When you finish setup from your hand control, the HC screen will tell you what position Polaris should be in your Polar Finder. Alternatively, there is a neat little program called Polarfinder by Jason Dale that does this very nicely. You can get this at: http://myastroimages.com/Polar_FinderScope_by_Jason_Dale/

--------------------
Sometimes I sits and thinks; sometimes I just sits.



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chitown
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Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: neptun2]
      #3118428 - 05/21/09 09:14 AM

ive seen this. My mount does not have "date and time" circle.

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D


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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #3118432 - 05/21/09 09:17 AM

Quote:


Step 3: Return the scope to HOME position.




But if i do this, then polaris will escape the reticle circle of the polar axis scope?

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D


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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: rdegoutier]
      #3118436 - 05/21/09 09:21 AM

Quote:



When you finish setup from your hand control, the HC screen will tell you what position Polaris should be in your Polar Finder.




Where is this information displayed, is it the PolarisHC prompt?

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D

Edited by chitown (05/21/09 09:24 AM)


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rdegoutier
super member


Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 123
Loc: White Rock, BC, Canada
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118453 - 05/21/09 09:38 AM

[quote
Where is this information displayed, is it the PolarisHC prompt?




Yes. My scope is put away, but I believe it is the second number.

To clarify the procedure(s), the Polar alignment step has nothing to do with the star alignment procedure, other than pointing your mount accurately to the NCP. Once this step is done, put the caps back on the Polar Finder and don't look at it again. As long as you don't move your tripod, it will stay positioned correctly.

--------------------
Sometimes I sits and thinks; sometimes I just sits.



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Skylook123
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Reged: 04/30/05
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Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118460 - 05/21/09 09:42 AM

Forgive me if, in my humble opinion, folks make the whole polar alignment exercise into a mental and physical contortionism.

First preliminary comment is that the Atlas does not come with the date-time circles, so there are two alternatives; the fuss and bother of trying to align the RA setting circle and OTA to get the little circle in the right location, or fuggedaboutit and do it the easy way, IGNORE THE LITTLE CIRCLE. Too much irrelevant information.

1. Set up mount so it points as close as possible to True North in azimuth and your latitude in elevation. Don't worry about home position yet. Leveling the mount does help the whole thing work easier.

2. Polaris needs to be on the big circle in the polar scope. All the convoluted instructions on getting the little circle oriented are unnecessary. The hand controller, when the correct date and time are entered, tells you where the little circle should be (the second number in the polar data). Or, use a planetarium program with the current date and time and notice where Polaris is with respect to the North Celestial Pole. I have a target circle of 1.5 degrees I center on NCP, Polaris lands on it.

2. Either use the hand controller Polaris location, which takes into account the horizontal and vertical flips in the polar scope refractor, or mentally flip the planetarium orientation in both axes. That's where Polaris should appear on the big circle in the polar scope. Piece of cake. Much easier to do than to type up.

3. So, you set up the mount, you know where Polaris should appear on the big circle from the hand controller or from your planetarium program, just look into the polar scope and put Polaris at that clock position on the big circle. Done. No crazy RA rolls, no "match the Cassiopeia/Big Dipper" orientation". Too dadgum simple, but it's all you need. And you didn't lose your home position rolling the OTA around.

Set the weights down, DEC=90 with whatever method you use to establish your Home/Park position, power cycle to get the HC to make use of the home/Park position, and go forth and align.

--------------------
Jim
South Rim Coordinator
Grand Canyon Star Party
gcsp[at]tucsonastronomy.org

“Equipped with his five senses, man explores the
universe around him and calls the adventure
Science” - Edwin Hubble


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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: Skylook123]
      #3118498 - 05/21/09 10:07 AM

Sorry for being a pain, but please look at my comments below..


Quote:



1. Set up mount so it points as close as possible to True North in azimuth and your latitude in elevation. Don't worry about home position yet. Leveling the mount does help the whole thing work easier. <<< I use the latitude meter on the side of Atlas and poistion it on "42" as per what i found on google. IS that what you are mentioning?

2. Polaris needs to be on the big circle in the polar scope. All the convoluted instructions on getting the little circle oriented are unnecessary. The hand controller, when the correct date and time are entered, tells you where the little circle should be (the second number in the polar data). <<< moving the RA to match that setting. Hence moving the RA so that polaris matches that data i see on HC? if so, then weight end would go up and scopes down.

2. Either use the hand controller Polaris location, which takes into account the horizontal and vertical flips in the polar scope refractor, or mentally flip the planetarium orientation in both axes. That's where Polaris should appear on the big circle in the polar scope. Piece of cake. Much easier to do than to type up. << Meaning just put polaris on the circle? Without moving the RA? Keeping scopes up and weight end down?


3. So, you set up the mount, you know where Polaris should appear on the big circle from the hand controller or from your planetarium program, just look into the polar scope and put Polaris at that clock position on the big circle. Done. No crazy RA rolls, no "match the Cassiopeia/Big Dipper" orientation". Too dadgum simple, but it's all you need. And you didn't lose your home position rolling the OTA around. <<< Home positions means, again, weights down and scopes up pointing north?





--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D


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jmasin
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/22/08
Posts: 2667
Loc: Murphy, TX (DFW)
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118615 - 05/21/09 11:07 AM

Chitown,

No offense intended at all, but I would recommend some time with the user manual, as most of this is defined there. That said -

The polar scope has a few items in the view -
1) the NCP (cross)
2) a large circle representing the track that polaris will follow around the NCP if the mount is aligned.
3) A small circle
4) Big Dipper and Casseopeia

The small circle is merely a helper tool so you can estimate where to put polaris relative to the NCP and Big Dipper/Casseopeia. This small circle IS NOT to be used to dictate where to start the telescope for alignment. It is ONLY to be used to position relative to the constellations.

It is not necessary to use this smaller circle and contort the mount in RA, you can use the larger circle only, this is easier.

For this, you need to know where on the big circle Polaris should be.

Go here: http://astrotips.com/Downloads-index-req-viewdownloaddetails-lid-173-ttitle-Polar_Finder.phtml

Download the program polarfinder. This small program will tell you exactly where on the LARGE circle polaris should be located for any given time (be sure to enter your longitude in the program).

Then, through your polar scope, put Polaris on the large circle in the location dictated by the polarfinder program. At your location, this time of year, ~9PM this will be in the ~1:30 position on the LARGE circle.

You can do all this with power off.

Then, return your scope to HOME position, as dictated in your manual, with power OFF. I.e. loosen clutches and physically move the scope so the counterweight shaft is pointing directly to the ground and the scope is pointing toward the NCP.

The mount assumes you are in this HOME position when you start your alignment (this is outlined in the manual).

--------------------
Cheers,
Jon

--------------
TOA-130NFB, Orion 8" Newt, AT10RC, AT6IN, AT65EDQ
Astro-Physics AP900GTO
SBIG ST-8300M, FW5-8300
My New Astrophotography Site and Blog
ALL My Astrophotography

Edited by jmasin (05/21/09 11:23 AM)


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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
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Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: jmasin]
      #3118644 - 05/21/09 11:25 AM

Quote:



Then, return your scope to HOME position




But I thought that I began with everything in HOME position. All I have to do is match polaris as clock on the big circle?

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D


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Skylook123
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Reged: 04/30/05
Posts: 7171
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Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3118660 - 05/21/09 11:35 AM

Sorry, Chitown, I should not have been in a hurry to type and run to work. Your questions are understandable without a bit of experience with the mount. I'll try to clarify.

1. The latitude scale on the side of the Atlas is, charitably, inaccurate. Anecdotally, folks report an error of anywhere from 3 to 7 degrees in the scale. So, even if you were to perfectly level the mount, the odds are that Polaris will be outside the polar scope field of view. Actually, I spent weeks polar aligning on the wrong star, mine was so off. There are two tricks I use to get the latitude close (and remember, the mount needs to be level for the latitude setting to be useful, and BTW the bubble level on the mount is off as well. Sheesh. I use a bulls-eye level on the tripod before adding the mount head). One is to set the dovetail slot to as close to a pseudo north as possible, and use an inclinometer in the dovetail slot. I bought one for a couple of dollars at Home Depot. It's sort of like a big protractor with a pointer that points down, and it's used to measure the angles of walls and shelves. I put the base of the inclinometer in the slot, and adjust the elevation until the protractor reads my latitude. And notice that my latitude indicator on the mount is four and a half degrees off. So, this is a long winded way of saying latitude is good, right latitude is better.

Second method to set latitude is more counter intuitive. It's called an iterative polar alignment. First set the mount up as usual, try to level if possible to keep the settings repeatable. Next, start up the mount an enter all the values. Do a 1-star alignment. Might be many, many degrees off, but that's OK, we'll fix that. Next GOTO Polaris. Notice how far off you are! Take out only half or a bit more of the offset with the azimuth and latitude mechanical adjustments on the mount. Do another 1-star to the same star. GOTO Polaris. Take out 1/2 or a bit more again (never take all of the offset out at one time; your axis error has a sign and you could force it to get worse; only ever take out 1/2 to 3/4 of the error with the mechanicals). Iterate this way (i-star align,then GOTO Polaris) until the errors are very small. Viola. You have your latitude. And terminal boredom, probably.

2. NO NO NO. Don't ttouch the RA; leave the mount set up like the Orion catalogue picture. CW down, OTA roughly pointing North. All you want to do is use the azimuth and latitude mechanicals to put Polaris in the correct clock position on the BIG circle. Ignore the little circle and the pretty constellation pictures; not necessary. Oh, here's a hint; if you use the 1-star iterative method above, eventually Polaris will be in the FOV of the polar scope and you can finish by now adjusting the mechanicals until Polars is on the big circle where it needs to be. Actually, if now you were to roll in RA, Polaris should be always on the big circle. THAT'S Polar aligned! But don't do that; why spoil Home/Park if you have it already.

2. Man, my counting is off; hope the IRS doesn't notice! Anyway, YES YES YES, By Golly, That's It!!

3. Correct again. Remember the inclinometer? I fool around with either that, or the bubble level, on the CW shaft to get the shaft perfectly level. Lock the RA setting circle. Move the CS shaft down until exactly 6 hours RA from when it was horizontal. That's the magic spot. To get the DEC=90 is a bit trickier, but here's a way that works. While you are getting the CW shaft level, once you've got it level, lock the RA clutch and leave it level for a moment or two. Go to the OTA (assumes you have the mount fully set up; actually, this finding the home position is a companion process to do right after you balance the scope). With the CW shaft perfectly level, loosen the DEC clutch and use the inclinometer or bubble level on the side of the OTA and make that level. Set the DEC setting circle to your latitude such that, when you roll it back upright, the DEC numbers will decrease to 0 when you are straight north. Now, when you roll the CW down to the point of 6 hours RA from where it was level, adjust in DEC until it reads 0. Hint: some folks will set the DEC = 0 when it's leveled, then adjust it to the latitude when the CWs are down. Easier to remember. Also, note that in this case the DEC values are meaningless astronomically; you're using the setting circles as fancy protractors, just to get the angles.

If you do the above level the mount, then get the Home position nailed down, then start the polar alignment using a 1-star alignment, setting Polaris on the big circle at the hand controller's value for the clock position, you'll be the Synta alignment expert and can sell your services at star parties. And really, since all of my setups are remote desert or school locations, it only takes me 20 minutes for the full process of adjusting for the latitude, finding Home, and polar and stellar alignment.

Good Luck!

--------------------
Jim
South Rim Coordinator
Grand Canyon Star Party
gcsp[at]tucsonastronomy.org

“Equipped with his five senses, man explores the
universe around him and calls the adventure
Science” - Edwin Hubble


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Skylook123
Postmaster


Reged: 04/30/05
Posts: 7171
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: Skylook123]
      #3118679 - 05/21/09 11:42 AM

Jon's instructions are of course correct; I just use the hand controller polar value, or just use my planetarium Polaris position and flip it in both axes to get the "sight picture" I should have in the polar scope.

--------------------
Jim
South Rim Coordinator
Grand Canyon Star Party
gcsp[at]tucsonastronomy.org

“Equipped with his five senses, man explores the
universe around him and calls the adventure
Science” - Edwin Hubble


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chitown
super member


Reged: 01/26/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: Skylook123]
      #3118709 - 05/21/09 12:00 PM

Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is what I have understood from all the help above:

Steps:
1. Start with the mount facing north in Home position
2. Home position is weight end down, scopes facing north straight
3. All levers locked (RA and Dec)
4. By looking at either the polarfinder software or the clock value on the HC, match the polaris on the BIG cirlce of the polar scope. Ignoring the pictures on it and the polaris small circle
5. Adjust the position of my ENTIRE rig to match polaris on the big circle. WITHOUT touching the RA.
6. Once its in the right position, turn on mount. And start with 1 Star alingment. And select Polaris as GOTO
7. Adjust again if necessary
8. Begin with the rest of the 3 Star Alignment

Please correct me if I am wrong in the most simplest words.

Thanks

--------------------
Takahashi FS-60C
Celestron C6
Atlas EQ-G Goto
10" Zhummel Dob
Orion SSAG
Canon 500D


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jmasin
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/22/08
Posts: 2667
Loc: Murphy, TX (DFW)
Re: 3 Star Alignment issues with Atlas EQ-GOTO new [Re: chitown]
      #3119027 - 05/21/09 02:56 PM

Chitown,

You basically have it. You may not need to do steps 6 & 7 if you are able to get it good with the polar scope to start.

Clear skies!

--------------------
Cheers,
Jon

--------------
TOA-130NFB, Orion 8" Newt, AT10RC, AT6IN, AT65EDQ
Astro-Physics AP900GTO
SBIG ST-8300M, FW5-8300
My New Astrophotography Site and Blog
ALL My Astrophotography


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