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photonovore
Moonatic
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2792
Loc: tacoma wa
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Quote:
Quote:
Using a telescope, what this means is that a person with say, 20/10 vision, will need one half the magnification to sufficiently resolve an object than that required for a person with 20/20 vision
I'm glad you agree with me that eyes are important Mardi, but I'm not sure about this statement. A person with 20/10 vision can focus better on more distant objects, but this doesn't mean he/she can magnify them. Where image scale is important, I don't think having 20/10 will help. In fact, I have terrible myopia...I'm like 20/200 or something ridiculous like that...and therefore eyepieces focus at a different location for me than others. But once focused, the playing field's level, and in this case I seem to have very good visual acuity.
you'll get no argument from me! Your eyesight could well be correctable past the 20/20 average..for example, baseball star Mark McGuire can see about 20/10 with his vision corrected but only 20/400 naturally. The reason such great correction like this is possible (and the reason it is more often *not* possible) is due to a very specific physical advantage, as I will explain a bit later.
FWIW, I'll delve into this subject a bit further...
The illustration I gave previously is rough but instructive overall as an illustration of the variability of human eyesight. In assessing innate human eye acuity, magnification isn't in play. I was refering to the relative ability of the eye to discern a shape of a specific degree of arc as measured by standard testing at a specific distance, the 20/xy ratio. (spatial resolving power) No magnification enters into this equation. It is the same for natural or corrected vision.
For example, someone with 20/20 vision, corrected to that or innate, can discern an object which subtends a 5 minute angle at 20 feet distance. Someone with 20/10 vision, corrected to that or innate, can discern an object which subtends angle 1/2 of the size than that of a person with 20/20 vision. This ratio remains the same to infinity, at any given distance. The person with the better vision sees everything at the same size as anyone else--at any given magnification including zero: They just are able to resolve more detail per specific distance up to and including infinity, the reason for which I'll get to later. At any rate, my point was only that the eye's optical acuity varies and thus presents an important factor as to what different people comparatively are able to see through the same telescope at the same time.
Now, magnification through a telescope works the same basic way as walking closer to the eyetest chart. The more magnification, the closer to the 'eye chart' you come, and the greater the object angles become and the more you can discern. Think of the eyechart as being the focal plane and decreasing distace to it as equivaent to increasing magnification in a telescopic system. Only by "increasing magnification", by walking up to ten feet of the chart, can a person with 20/20 vision resolve the same detail the person with 20/10 can resolve-- at twice that distance. Now we can see why, if a person with 20/20 is using the maximum usable magnification on a specific telescope, then that person will likely be able to discern considerably less detail than a person with 20/10 vision; and see *less* detail, generally, in that particular telescope. In fact, the person with 20/20 will require a *bigger* telescope, capable of two times higher useable magnification, just to be able to discern what the person with 20/10 can see at half that magnification.
With the foregoing in mind it's easy to understand why a person with less visual acuity than another will see less through the same instrument at the same time with the same magnification; and also why the person with lesser visual acuity would need *more* magnification to duplicate the visual details seen at a lower magnification by the person with more acute vision--and perhaps a larger telescope to do it with.
This observation possibly goes a long ways towards helping explain the occassional discontinuity between different observers (current and historically) and what can be seen in a specifric aperture/system. For example, concerning an extended detail like Encke's represents, let's say common wisdom requires about 10" and 400X to even have a chance to see it. But increase visual acuity 25% or more over average acuity (represented as 20/20 corrected) and then those occasional sightings in 8" or even 6" instruments all of a sudden have another quite rational explanation beyond simply wishful or mistaken thinking.
Vision, corrected or innate, can reach 20/10 though not much past that if any at all. Focusing--or glasses or contacts-- cannot correct eyesight to a resolution level exceeding that which it is biologically capable of. (Lasik researchers dispute this precept however, see references below). Younger eyes often can see or be corrected to better than 20/20; older eyes often can see or be corrrected to no better than 20/25.
Now as to why the eye is thus limited---What determines what resolution power an eye is capable of? Why can some eyes only be corrected to say, 20/25 while others can be corrected to as much as 20/10? The answer lies in the density of the sensing cells (cones and rods) within the retina. Generally, the greater the density of these cells, the better level your eyesight is correctable to, both for day and for night vision. The key area to the optician's measurement of visual acuity, however, is restricted to the fovea centralis. The greater the density of cones in this discreet area of the retina, the better your 20/ score will be.
Most of us already know that we actually have two sets of 'eyes' within each eye and each 'eye' functions within discreet areas of the retinal surface; one 'eye' is designed for low illumination and another 'eye' is designed for higher illumination. The greatest cone density (and the source of one's best visual acuity) is located in the fovea centralis and the acuity of that area is what an optometrist measures when he/she measures visual acuity and fits corrective lenses on a person. The retinal area we normally use for focused vision (reading etc) is the macula, the cone rich area surrounding the fovea.
Then there is the other 'eye', which is peripheral to the macula and is populated primarily by rods. This retinal area becomes the most sensitive and provides the functional acuity in low light situations, where cones simply cease to function well. However, low light (rod) acuity is merely a fraction of what high illumination (cone) acuity is. Increased light (image brightness) helps us see better because we can then use our more sensitive cones within the fovea. "Visual acuity during scotopic (pure rod) vision is very very poor: 20-200 vs. 20-20 for cone vision: 10 times better!" ref.
This factors into why the brighter image given in a large telescope is also helpful & important in discerning more detail. The more illuminated the image, the more we benefit from the increased resolving power inherent in our 'cone vision'. Put another way, the less we depend upon scotopic vision the better we can see detail. This also illustrates the underlying reason why we want to conserve as much of the light entering a telescope's system as possible..the more light, the more illuminated the image and the better we are able to maximize the visability of details using a given aperture, all else being equal (no increase in light scatter etc).
All this leads naturally to a simple question: is the visual acuity as measured at the fovea centralis (cone acuity) translatable in any direct proportion to that of the rod areas of the eye? In other words, does extra sharp cone vision (better than 20/20) necessarily mean one also has extra sharp rod (scotopic) vision as well>? Or could the acuity vary, even be opposite? I can't find definative information on this although there would seem to be a relative correlation; maybe someone else can find more data relevant to this question.
Understanding the role of the eye within the telescopic system can lead to some interesting observations. For example, if you want to know what part of your eye is active in providing whatever resolution you are seeing you can do a simple experiment: see if averted vision (rod vision) improves the resolution of the object's details--if it does than you know your vision is limited by the resolution of your rod vision and therefore acuity is vastly decreased from what it could be--and you know that more illumination (object brightness) would improve things. This is handy when adjusting the brightness of an object with filters, such as the moon or bright planets. You wouldn't want to decrease the brightness to such a level that your averted (rod) vision starts to dominate, for example.
Another example is the impact of chromatic aberration--the rods are totally color blind and sense only the 505 nm wavelength of light. This is why any improvement of CA within an optical system ceases to factor visually whenever you are observing an object below the illumination threshold at which cone (color) vision begins to function--which is why CA's presence doesn't negatively effect the view of faint extra solar objects (nebulae, galaxies) as it does the bright planets & stars, moon etc.
Understanding how the eye works also exposes the reason higher reflectance coatings on such components as diagonals and other reflective optical surfaces provide such widely acclaimed benefit. This would be truly win-win but for the increased light scatter these coatings (enhanced alum, die electric, etc) also generate which arguably can make a wash of the whole effort. "Arguably" indeed...as every eye is different, so are the effects each one observes in a given system configuration. Does the increased light scatter really cancel or exceed the gain in illumination levels enhanced aluminum, for example, provides? No wonder there is so much dispute among observers concerning the nature and relevance of the discreet effects small optical variations engender! It's entirely possible that the relevant answer to that question could lie more in the optical differences between individual eyes than anywhere else.
Anyway, when comparing optics, we shouldn't forget that the figure of our eye is just as relevant to a telesope's performance as the figure of it's own optics. The system doesn't end at the eyepiece by a long shot.
reference reference reference reference reference
-------------------- Mardi
4" achromat, ETX-70, 8"cat.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
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Quote:
If our corneas and eye lenses were made of glass, we might see the moons of Jupiter naked eye. Unfortunately most of us have eyes made of organic cells in fiber patterns, causing bright stars to have "rays" - and Jupiter too, which hide the satellites.
I'm afraid the eye tests we are dispensed are made separating close double stars, usually they make them up for dumb stuff like reading books.
I have been lucky enoug to meet two (2) people who claimed they could see the moons of Jupiter naked eye, but unfortunately for them when I tested them, the moons were in a 3-1 or 4-0 arrangement and they saw of course two on each side of the planet.
I also used averted imagination on this case myself- I thought I had seen them but the pattern did not match when I checked the satellites' positions.
Well, I have a friend of mine and fellow amateur who, when we were back in college, also claimed he could see the Jovian moons without a telescope or binoculars. His dorm room was high up and we got the screens of his window off so that I could test him. I did a "double blind" style of test over a number of nights where he did not know initially where the moons were. Sure enough, if Ganymede or Callisto were away from the planet, he could detect them consistently and was accurate in where he said they were. He even caught Io and Europa at their greatest elongations, although not otherwise. I can occasionally pick up Callisto at its greatest elongation, and can get both Callisto and Ganymede if I block out Jupiter with a distant power line, but otherwise, my eyes aren't good enough to consistently tell the moons are there. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
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Photonovore wrote:
Quote:
This observation possibly goes a long ways towards helping explain the occassional discontinuity between different observers (current and historically) and what can be seen in a specifric aperture/system. For example, concerning an extended detail like Encke's represents, let's say common wisdom requires about 10" and 400X to even have a chance to see it. But increase visual acuity 25% or more over average acuity (represented as 20/20 corrected) and then those occasional sightings in 8" or even 6" instruments all of a sudden have another quite rational explanation beyond simply wishful or mistaken thinking.
I'm afraid that the 6 or 8 inch instrument sighting claims of the true Encke division are very likely not within the realm of possibility due to the fact that the resolution of the telescope is insufficient to resolve (and thus separate) the Encke division from the dark outer edge of the A-ring. The separation of the division from the edge of the A-ring is optimally about 0.5 arc seconds (at mean opposition), and effects of diffraction will blend the division into the darkness at the outer edge of the ring, resulting in only a diffuse darkening of the ring edge rather than the visiblity of a narrow division. It doesn't matter how good the observer's eyes are: if the scope isn't big enough, the wave nature of light will prevent the detail from being viewed.
Reference: AMATEUR ASTRONOMER'S HANDBOOK by J.B. Sidgwick, p. 49-51 (parallel dark lines on light ground).
-------------------- David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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photonovore
Moonatic
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2792
Loc: tacoma wa
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Hi David, Thanks for re-stating your opinion for the umpteenth time-- just in case anyone missed it... I have the feeling you'll be casting doubt on any observation of this feature, or, I suspect, any other that you have failed to duplicate yourself, for the rest of your life-- sadly to no avail as people will still see what they see regardless. (This applies historically as well.)
BTW..."It doesn't matter how good the observer's eyes are" has to be the most rationally baseless statement I have ever heard from an amateur astronomer. "the wave nature of light", indeed.
-------------------- Mardi
4" achromat, ETX-70, 8"cat.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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BillFerris
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 3587
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Quote:
Hi David, Thanks for re-stating your opinion for the umpteenth time-- just in case anyone missed it... [snip]
Actually, I believe Dave was pointing out the fact that aperture imposes a limit on resolution.
Regards,
Bill in Flagstaff
-------------------- Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 33846
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Quote:
Hi David, Thanks for re-stating your opinion for the umpteenth time-- just in case anyone missed it... I have the feeling you'll be casting doubt on any observation of this feature, or, I suspect, any other that you have failed to duplicate yourself, for the rest of your life-- sadly to no avail as people will still see what they see regardless. (This applies historically as well.)
BTW..."It doesn't matter how good the observer's eyes are" has to be the most rationally baseless statement I have ever heard from an amateur astronomer. "the wave nature of light", indeed.
From the TOS:
Quote:
Above all – the golden rule applies. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Personal attacks will not be tolerated, nor will other behavior deemed to be antisocial.
Just a little reminder of CN's TOS, so - lets try and leave personal feelings and any animosity out of discussions like this, eh?
Thanks
Tom T.
-------------------- You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice...
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 13991
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
I have the feeling you'll be casting doubt on any observation of this feature,
Just in case you missed it, David was merely pointing out he believes the laws of physics (more particularly, indeed, the wave nature of light or rather wave/particle duality of photons) can't be magically waived by excellent observer eyes.
The wave nature of light indeed.
If you have any information suggesting his understanding of physics (or his math) is wrong, then feel free to comment.
--------------------
400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Skywatcher 130mm f/5 BlackLine (finder, widefield scope and solar continuum scope)
Sumerian 250mm f/4.8 Alkaid (as travelscope without platform and on Tom O. platform above).
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 33846
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Ahem - EVERYBODY...
Please see my previous post.
It would be a shame to lock this thread.
T
-------------------- You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice...
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markf
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 1936
Loc: Houston, TX
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Jovian moons, naked eye? And I'm still trying to see TrapE&F stars with my 6"! (And the GRS, which I'm thinking is a hoax )
Some people are blessed! Mark
-------------------- Celestron C6N on a CG5-GT
Orion 80mm Refractor (guidescope)
ToUCam Pro II
Canon 40D
http://www.carsandfish.com/astroweb
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Bill Grass
Prince Regent
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 11665
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
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Play nice, folks!
--------------------
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
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Quote:
Jovian moons, naked eye? And I'm still trying to see TrapE&F stars with my 6"! (And the GRS, which I'm thinking is a hoax )
Some people are blessed!
Mark
Yes, they are sometimes. When we were in college working on our Physics degrees, we had a lab where we had to do some work with a precision laboratory spectroscope to determine wavelengths for various gas tube emissions. My friend (the one who could see some of the moons of Jupiter naked-eye) proceeded to identify lines in both the solar spectrum and in a lab spectrum (Neon maybe?) where some of the lines were nearly in the near infrared! He probably had vision down to at least 7100 Angstroms and perhaps a little beyond 7200 Angstroms, but none of us could see the lines he accurately measured the wavelengths for! This color perception got him into trouble when he was in the Army, as it negated some of the camouflage that they used to conceal troops!
As for the E and F components of the Trapezium, don't give up trying for them with a 6 inch. It takes high power and some really good seeing to catch them, but it is possible, although they are pretty faint. The GRS is much harder than it used to be many years ago, as back in the late 1960's through the 1970's, it was almost brick red and visible even in a 60mm refractor at 120x. Now, it is really tough to see it clearly, although I have gotten the hollow and a hint of the spot itself in a 4 inch refractor from time to time. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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jmoore
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 1959
Loc: Beaufort, NC
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Last few posts = good tension breakers. thanks.
-------------------- Hardin 12"
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LesB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 2512
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
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I thought I saw a division in the outer ring with my 6" but after reading this thread I realize the reasons are compelling for not having seen it at all.
In fact, this thread has argued so well for the difficulty of seeing Encke's that it has convinced me that it doesn't exist at all. Encke surely would have encountered the same perceptual problems since he was presumably human and would have made the same errors.
There are a lot of pitfalls in seeing what you see.
-------------------- Your DNA is like an egg timer. When it dings, you're done.
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BillFerris
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 3587
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Hi Les,
Your post raises a couple of points that, I think, are very important to any discussion about threshold observations. One, is that observing is an interpretive process. We see some collection of details and interpret them as being some object. For instance, if I look in the eyepiece of my telescope and see a bright, circular and slightly yellowish thing with what appears to be a ringlike structure encircling it, I might conclude that I'm seeing the object, Saturn. Later, I notice a thick, dark line within the ringlike structure about 1/3 the way in from the outer edge. I know from having read several astronomy texts that there's a division between Saturn's A and B rings called the Cassini division. I interpret what I'm seeing as an observation of this division.
Most experienced observers would agree that Saturn and the Cassini divsion are rather trivial detections. In other words, they've been reliably observed and identified on countless ocassions even in department store refractors. So, it comes as no surprise to read of another observation of these objects. And given the most rudimentary details, this latest observation can appear reasonable and reliable.
The other important point is that, by their very nature, threshold observations are open to skepticism and doubt. They are, afterall, observations made in that grey area--that no man's land--separating that which can be seen from that which can not.
It's not a hard and fast line that separates these realms. It's not as though all 6th magnitude and brighter stars can be seen naked eye and all fainter stars can not. Under a pristine sky, most experienced observers will confidently report seeing a 6th magnitude star. As we try to go deeper, there will come a point when I will not be able to see any fainter stars. And those that are at my limit may not be visible 100% of the time. I may only detect that faintest star 50% or 20% of the time.
For other observers, that cutoff will come at a fainter limit than mine. At some point, no observers will be able to see any stars fainter than X without optical aid. But these thresholds are not hard and fast lines. They represent a range of magnitudes, say between 6.0 and 9.0, within which all people eventually lose the ability to detect stars naked eye.
I think the same can be said in other areas. Whether we're talking about Simeis 147, Encke's division or Einstein's Cross, the best we can do is say that under certain condidtions they are possible to observe. Threshold objects never enter that realm of being easy or trivial to observe. Or, when they do, they no longer are threshold objects.
Some visual observers don't recognize this last point. So, when somebody expresses skeptism or requests more detail about a threshold observation, it is taken as a personal afront. This is unfortunate on at least two levels. First, being skeptical of a threshold observation is not about--at least, it shouldn't be--the integrity or honesty of the observer. This skepticism should arrise naturally from the fact that, even under optimum conditions, detection of the object is understood to be difficult. Such skepticism should not be taken personally. Rather, we should acknowledge that skepticism goes hand in hand with reports of challenging observations.
Second, if we are not open to and accepting of this skepticism, then we lose the ability to discuss threshold observations in a meaningful way. Requiring that we simply accept a naked eye observation of Pluto without questioning it, trivializes the acts of attempting and making threshold observations. In many cases, these are observations that require no small amount of skill or ingenuity on the part of observer. It's the application of skill, experience and knowledge that often makes the difference between seeing and not seeing a threshold object. Skill allows us, as observers, to move an object from the realm of possibility to the realm of reality. Experience and knowledge allows us to interpret what we're seeing with accuracy...even if that sometimes means recognizing that I didn't see the object.
A negative sighting isn't a failure on the part of the observer. Sometimes, it's just not possible to see what we're looking for.
Regards,
Bill in Flagstaff
-------------------- Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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Bob Clift
sage
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 348
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Quote:
Jovian moons, naked eye? And I'm still trying to see TrapE&F stars with my 6"! (And the GRS, which I'm thinking is a hoax )
Some people are blessed! Mark
There are stars? I'll believe _that_ when I see them.
(Stuck in the middle of light-polluted south-east UK )
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cirrus
super member
Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 174
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Again, the distinction between resolved and detected must be emphasized. If you can see the effect of the division near the edge of the A ring then you have detected something. As the resolution of the instrument gets better, the feature gradually becomes sharper and more prominent until it is fully resolved. Would the feature in Sol's sketch (many posts ago), be there without the gap? The ansuer is no and I think he has detected the gap even if it was not fully resolved. This is common of many planetary/lunar features. Another good example is the gap created by the break-up in the polar caps of Mars which can be detected with small scopes as a fuzzy dark area but fully resolved as a gap in a larger scope.
cirrus
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cirrus
super member
Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 174
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Les:
The Enke division is definitely there. If you have any doubts go check-out the NASA Cassini web site. And it is really not that difficult to observe given good skies and a large enough scope.
cirrus
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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Celestron
Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 4899
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For all practical observations, this Keeler division can be spotted in 8" apos and 10" newts on up under the skies of Southern California. Anything smaller and it's very hard to see. 400x is about right.
--------------------
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
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Quote:
For all practical observations, this Keeler division can be spotted in 8" apos and 10" newts on up under the skies of Southern California. Anything smaller and it's very hard to see. 400x is about right.
No, the Keeler gap is not the current division which is now called the "Encke" division by the I.A.U. The Keeler gap was a sort of a 'bone' thrown to Keeler's memory by the I.A.U., and is not visible to Earth-based telescopes. It is a tiny gap (less than 35 km wide) and sits 136,576 kilometers from the center of Saturn (only 204 kilometers inside the outer edge of the A-ring). The I.A.U. named the more prominent gap in the outer A-ring shown by Keeler's 1888 drawing and by the Voyager spacecraft images the "Encke division". That division is at a distance of 133,706 kilometers from Saturn (3074 km from the outer edge of Saturn's A-ring), and is about 325 km in width. It is a target for 10 inch and larger apertures when seeing conditions are excellent and Saturn's rings are well-placed for viewing (i.e. high ring tilt with Saturn not far from opposition). Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
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Quote:
Again, the distinction between resolved and detected must be emphasized. If you can see the effect of the division near the edge of the A ring then you have detected something. As the resolution of the instrument gets better, the feature gradually becomes sharper and more prominent until it is fully resolved. Would the feature in Sol's sketch (many posts ago), be there without the gap? The ansuer is no and I think he has detected the gap even if it was not fully resolved. This is common of many planetary/lunar features. Another good example is the gap created by the break-up in the polar caps of Mars which can be detected with small scopes as a fuzzy dark area but fully resolved as a gap in a larger scope.
cirrus
There is a real photometric fall-off of the brightness in the middle to outer A-ring that would be there whether the Encke division was there or not (measured by M. Camichael and A. Dollfus). The Encke presence probably enhances it a bit, but this brightness fall-off would still prevent the Encke division from being even "detected" until the aperture got to the size where it can be truly resolved from the darker outer edge of the A-ring. If the Encke division was sitting in the middle of the ring well-away from any other features, it might be detectable in a somewhat smaller aperture than that needed to resolve it from the outer ring edge, but it isn't. It is simply just a little too close to the outer edge of the A-ring. Diffraction effects tend to make its darkness merge with the rest of the darkening in the outer A-ring. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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