jamida
super member
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington (state)
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Recently I started to set up an astro-outreach activity at one of the local schools and ran into an unusual snafu. I'll spare you the details and just jump right into the nut of the problem.
I was told that I needed to have insurance and present proof of said insurance to a school administrator to be able to do one of these outreach events. Now... if we were running... say a model rocketry club and wanted to use the school grounds after hours for our own affairs, I could understand that need. But here, we're trying to set up telescopes for the benefit of the school kids and not for ourselves. I'm really representing just a loosely knit collection of local astronomers and we haven't even formed ourselves into a formal entity yet, so this insurance question is gonna be hard to answer in the short term.
The question is... how would you proceed if you were me?
a) do it but not on school grounds?
b) push back and give said administrator more background to verify if insurance is indeed needed in our case?
c) you're hosed dude, insurance is needed and if you don't have it, you're SOL.
But more to the point... does anyone KNOW if this insurance request (for an astro outreach) is indeed a reasonable request?
Thanks in advance
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Mike Davis
8" LX 200 "classic"
Milburn wedge
Minolta Activa 7x50 Binoculars (2)
Canon Digital Rebel XT
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 USM lens
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rboe
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 63466
Loc: Phx, AZ
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You will have to restrict your answers to the ones coming from Washington state and just maybe your county.
If you have not done it yet, ask the Admin about the insurance. What kind is needed or required by law so that you buy the right kind. His answer will tell you where you can push back - or not. 
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
127mm F9 Surplus Shed/Crawmach kit scope
Coronado SolarMax 40 on a Celestron 102 Wide Field
Best of ATM
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15091
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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SHHHHH! I don't need the school administrator at the school I do these things with to get any ideas. : 
Luckily, the subject hasn't come up for me yet. I would think the school's own insurance would be in effect, but I know nothing about the insurance business. 
They are covered for other extra curricular activities held on campus, aren't they? 
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 18002
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I would listen to the school administrator. That is his or her job, and if anyone was to be hurt (and people manage to hurt themselves in the dangdest ways), the school would be sued. Every official body in this country is now liable for everything. You'd be amazed at the sort of suits that occur and succeed.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I had to go thru the same thing, sort of, so here's what you do. Call the School Department. The Superintendent of Schools office has a form for applying to hold programs on school grounds. There is a section of that form that requirs insurance. You provide a full (written) explanation to the Superintendent of your program and with his/her agreement, the Superintendant can waive the need for insurance. I keep my signed form with me for every program.
I've done the same thing with Town Hall. That gives me permission to hold events on town lands without insurance(Parks and fields).
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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edwincjones
Close Enough
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
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worse case-someone trips on your tripod in the dark with injury
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edwincjones
Close Enough
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
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Is there any legal history of suit for astronomy outreach by the public against an individual amateur astronomer?
I can see a club being sued, or a dispute between 2 amateurs leading to court; but a member of the public sueing an individula donating time?
edj
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Is there any legal history of suit for astronomy outreach by the public against an individual amateur astronomer?
edj
Probably not - but under the "deep pockets" doctrine schools get sued quite frequently. This explains their policies.
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John C
Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery
AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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I've run into this only once, but being at the time an insurance peddler, I said that request was reasonable, and I would also need a Certificate of Insurance from the school board protecting me in the event of injury on school grounds. We decided that we could proceed without the "formalities".
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 33846
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Quote:
I've run into this only once, but being at the time an insurance peddler, I said that request was reasonable, and I would also need a Certificate of Insurance from the school board protecting me in the event of injury on school grounds. We decided that we could proceed without the "formalities".
LOL!
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You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice...
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jamida
super member
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington (state)
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I like EdZ's and Rusty's comments... helpful (and funny)... Since Rusty used to be an insurance peddler... one aspect of this seems goofy to me and I'd like a learned response...
Even if we do have insurance, a lot of these events are "ad-hoc" in that more parties attend these events than are covered by the insurance. At the very least, I'm referring to unaffiliated astronomers who come along just to add more scopes to the event. If something were to happen requiring the insurance coverage to kick in involving one of these "unaffiliated" astronomers... what happens then?
And yea... this is rapidly turning into a sad commentary on the modern US state of affairs. 
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Mike Davis
8" LX 200 "classic"
Milburn wedge
Minolta Activa 7x50 Binoculars (2)
Canon Digital Rebel XT
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 USM lens
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 2066
Loc: Plano, TX
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It will be an even sadder one if the day ever comes where we have to require anyone looking through our eyepieces to show us their insurance as well.
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David Moody, FRAS
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 14043
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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How are all the other extra curricular things covered??? Do they each have their own policy as well???
I'd ask them that...
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
 Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Without putting words into (fill in the blank) mouth, most administrators are basically reading from a prepared script, produced by the entity's attorney. Now, this isn't a knock against lawyers, because they're paid to contemplate and reduce risks. But lawyers aren't paid to engage in common sense (again, this isn't a knock - it's their jobs - and because of the strictures of most bar associations, they can't be equivocating).
But for an insurance agent, the duty is to evaluate the real risk of an operation, and many times, the real risk is far less than the risk perceived by the entity's attorney...and this is normal - a lawyer has to consider "worst case", while an insurance agent considers the factors of the real risk.
If a public entity were engaging in stock car races on a school stadium track, most likely the attorney and insurance agent would be apprehensive. But for the setting up of telescopes for stargazing by an individual, the risk is lower than minimal, and common sense can prevail. Now the attorney may recommend against it (as he should), but attorneys are servants to their clients, not masters, and the entity's judgement should prevail: Do it!
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 18002
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Rusty's post is most illuminating, but I believe there should be a caveat: even a public school is not entirely an open territory. I will stand corrected on this if someone has better information than I, but if a school administrator denies access to a campus for a given purpose, if someone goes ahead and uses the campus in defiance of that decision, that could constitute criminal trespass. The administrator is only doing his or her job and could get into big trouble if anything went wrong.
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15091
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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The school where I do most of these type events had an old, 4ft tall, chainlink fence around the playground, with unlocked, or even missing, gates all around. I had never checked with any higher authority than the science teachers, though I did manage to wave the Principal over to have a look at mercury's transit of the sun. Never yet had any mention of insurance.
BUT, the school recently took down the old fence and put up a new, 6ft tall "iron rail" type fence with locking gates (actually anodized aluminum I think), so it won't be as easy to arrive and set up, let alone drive out onto the playground so I don't have to lug equipment so far. 
Add to that... I talked to the 4th grade science teacher Thursday at the beginning of the year "open house" night, about having a night with her 4th graders at her in-laws place further out of town. She is all excited and is checking with her in-laws to see if they will be home... AND she mentioned checking with the Principal. I hope that isn't the beginning of something bad.
BTW, the science teacher for 5th & 6th grade raised no such specter about having a night on the school playground. Then again, she's an old hand and may not have given any thought to any new rules just yet.
I seriously doubt there will be any problem. They are usually a pretty levelheaded bunch, and they've known me for 10 years. (Long before I started doing astro stuff with them or myself)
One caveat perhaps relevant... this is a private school, and perhaps immune to some of the bureaucratic nonsense public schools might have to endure.
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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jamida
super member
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 135
Loc: Washington (state)
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Since we're talking about normal use we thought we'd give a bit of background in my case. We've done several of these solely on the permission of the teachers involved. This time we thought we'd try to get the outdoor lights turned off which was beyond the call of the teachers involved and that's when we ran into the school administrator. DOH!
I'm optimistic we'll have a good outcome as my wife is on good terms with the school board president. But I wanted to prepare ourselves as best we could and try to assess what sort of experiences others have had in this area.
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Mike Davis
8" LX 200 "classic"
Milburn wedge
Minolta Activa 7x50 Binoculars (2)
Canon Digital Rebel XT
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 USM lens
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 14043
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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May be unrelated, but I think it applies...
Me and my wife wanted to get married in a certain church we were planning on joining... But the church through us a curveball when they told us we would have to get a Rider policy for that day for insurance...
When we mentioned it to our agent, he told us to walk away... If the church was asking us to insure ourselves, then the Church was either severly UNDER insured, or NOT insured at all! In general, under "Normal" circumstances, the churches policy would have all coverage for every activity that a church would normally hold... Them asking us to insure our own wedding sounded fishy...
Could it be possible that the school may not have adequate coverage to begin with?
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Quote:
Rusty's post is most illuminating, but I believe there should be a caveat: even a public school is not entirely an open territory. I will stand corrected on this if someone has better information than I, but if a school administrator denies access to a campus for a given purpose, if someone goes ahead and uses the campus in defiance of that decision, that could constitute criminal trespass. The administrator is only doing his or her job and could get into big trouble if anything went wrong.
I agree entirely - agreement by the school officials is essential, because they're the ones responsible. But the fact that it is public property does provide a bit of leverage in persuading those officials.
Actually our club has a bit of strain in providing sessions for all the schools and libraries that want stargazing, and in the districts for which we provide those services, the subject of insurance has never come up. But after I joined the club, we got insurance (through a colleague, not through me).
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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edwincjones
Close Enough
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
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Quote:
Is there any legal history of suit for astronomy outreach by the public against an individual amateur astronomer?
I can see a club being sued, or a dispute between 2 amateurs leading to court; but a member of the public sueing an individula donating time?
edj
If we take this to the extreme, we should stop all uninsured outreach due to risk to us. Sad state of affairs.
edj
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