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AstroArlo
sage
Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
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I've been researching various processing flows, and it seems that many people have both CCDSoft V5 and also MaximDL. I already have CCDSoft V5, and am contemplating purchasing MaximDL. However it seems it is mostly a duplication of CCDSoft V5 -although there are some attractive plug-ins for MaximDL, but Perhaps there is a better place to spend the money other than duplicating software...
So, I would like to hear what people think the major differences are between the two software packages, and why I should have BOTH.
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Best Regards, Arlo
Grand Cosmic Observatory, Jackson Hole, Wyoming
CATS/CASS - 20" RCOS Ritchey-Chretien, C14, C8
REFRACTORS - 155mm Astro-Physics Starfire EDF w/4" Focuser, 102mm Televue Genesis, 78mm FS Takahashi
ASTROGRAPHS - 8" Lichtenecker Flat Field Camera, 6" JSO Schmidt Camera
MOUNTS - Paramount ME, Losmandy GM200, Takahashi EM-100
CCD/IMAGING - SBIG STS-4, SBIG STL-11000M
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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/06
Posts: 1538
Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana
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Good topic! I'd like to watch how this turns out as well. I also use CCDSoft and AIP4WIN. 
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Michael W
Washoe Zephyr: 
Arizona Sky Village: 
I miss my AP1200. 
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Yeah, me too! I also have CCDSoft v5 and AIP4Win v2
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Dean
Postmaster
Reged: 12/31/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bailey Co Elev 8780 feet
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I've used CCDSoft, AIP4Win and MaximDL at one point or another. These days I only use MaximDL.
CCDSoft comes free with SBIG cameras, and is a very capable software package for image aquisition. It's a lot simpler to use than MaximDL and is great for getting started. I started with CCDSoft, but migrated to MaximDL for features that weren't available in CCDSoft.
AIP4Win is a decent image processing program, and with the book "Handbook of Astronomical Image Processing" is great for learning what goes on with image processing. However, I found AIP4Win to be pretty limited and not very user friendly and soon moved from AIP4Win to MaximDL for my initial processing. MaximDL is a much more useful tool. For example with MaximDL calibrating, aligning and stacking images is a breeze - once you have a library of darks and flats, it is very simple to just point MaximDL to your images and have it calibrate and stack them (even automatically fix bad pixels and blooms if you want).
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"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?
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OrionChaser
member
Reged: 01/12/06
Posts: 79
Loc: San Jose, CA
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I've tried CCDOps, CCDSoft, AIPv2, MaximDL, and CCDStack, but currently I use MaximDL for camera control and CCDStack for initial processing. I prefer CCDStack for the processing because it gives me much more control and visibility over the process, and the DDP is *much* faster than MaximDL. MaximDL's calibration/aligning/stacking features do work well, however, and are very easy to use. CCDStack requires a bit more work and thought, but for me the results are worth it.
For camera control and automation though, MaximDL is great. Unlike CCDSoft, it has ASCOM support for focusers (although I generally use FocusMax) and scopes/mounts. The built-in PinPoint astrometric engine is very handy too. CCDSoft will do plate solves too (if you also have TheSky), but all it does is add the info to the FITS header. MaximDL takes that a step further, allowing you to sync the mount on the solved position. I use this all the time to center targets. Just slew to the general neighborhood of the desired target, take a short exposure, do a PinPoint solve, sync the mount on the solved position, then do another slew to the target. This works so well (and usually takes less than a minute), that I have not yet taken the time to do a complete MaxPoint run since I moved into my observatory.
I also find setting up sequences to be more flexible and easier with MaximDL than CCDSoft. CCDSoft will do the basics (RGB or LRGB), but MaximDL is more open-ended and will let you do just about anything you can think of (like automatically taking a set of darks at the end of the imaging run). MaximDL also gives me more feedback on guiding, including the very nice live error graph in both axes.
Todd
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OrionChaser
member
Reged: 01/12/06
Posts: 79
Loc: San Jose, CA
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I'll also add that while I don't use the AIP4WINv2 software much, the book alone is well worth the cost. *All* of these software packages work much better when you have a better understanding of what's going on under the hood.
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Todd: Actually, CCDSoft has ASCOM support for focusers too.
For me, the difference is now more in the intuitive feel of MaxIm as opposed to any features MaxIm might have over CCDSoft (CCDSoft has become much more feature rich in recent hotfixes). I like MaxIm because of the logging/graph function. I used to prefer it because of things like dithering, sequence setup, etc., but those are both things that can now be done in CCDSoft, either natively or by plug-in.
I don't care for the way CCDSoft does calibrations, which I think is a pain in the tail with that software. MaxIm was always my preferred software, that is, until CCDstack came along. Now, I use CCDSoft for camera control and CCDStack for calibrations.
Really, I see no reason to purchase MaxIm anymore, since CCDSoft with CCDStack is a cheaper solution (assuming CCDSoft came with your camera). And I think that tandem is ultimately more powerful than MaxIm alone. However, if you want the best software for camera control, MaxIm is still the easiest to use. The only reason I know longer use MaxIm is because I've had issues with how it works (or doesn't work) with my Paramount.
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jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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bill w
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
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photometry and pinpoint LE are nice perks in maxim
poinpoint is very helpful in identifying objects
do the others have these features?
bill w
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-bill w
nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:
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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/06
Posts: 1538
Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana
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Jay: Does CCDStack offer scripting so I can process a number of images? I downloaded the trial and it seems fairly straightforward but it would be nice to deconvolve, background smooth many images at a shot, ie unattended. Sorry for the minor deviation from the thread topic.
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Michael W
Washoe Zephyr:
Arizona Sky Village:
I miss my AP1200.
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Bill: Yes, in conjunction with The Sky, CCDsoft does full astrometric plate solves. I use this feature regularly with T-Point software to refine my mounts alignment and pointing accuracy. With Ron Wodaski's Automapper software, it works like a dream...and you need CCDsoft to do that (if I recall correctly).
Michael: I'm not aware of any software that does what you ask of it, that being scripted processing of an image. Most scripting programs I am aware of, like CCDAutoPilot, makes unattended image acquisition possible. As far as I know, once you get that data, you've got to it the old fashioned way. With CCDstack, you can make changes globally to multiple images, but I've never found that necessary. You're still going to always do processing steps like deconvolution and smoothing on a final stacked image or channel, not the individual data files. So at most, you are only having to do such processing on 3 or 4 files, as with an RGB or LRGB image.
I hope I'm understanding your question properly.
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jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/06
Posts: 1538
Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana
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Thanks Jay! Yes that was the question. I have played with the program a fair bit today and I can work on "stacks" for several things but deconvolution isn't one of them. Oh well I was hoping to be able to start some of the longer processes then grab a cup of coffee, walk the dog etc. etc. etc. Still it is an impressive program for the money. I may just have to break down and buy it.
FWIW: I downloaded a trial of Maxim/DL in the past and couldn't seem to make it work for me. I was still very fresh with imaging so maybe today I'd have a better grasp. But I already am familiar with CCDSoft and AIP4WIN (to some extent) and the CCDstack seems to round out well what I know as of today.
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Michael W
Washoe Zephyr:
Arizona Sky Village:
I miss my AP1200.
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Yeah, that's my thinking Michael. I consider MaxIm as a luxury now-a-days, since the combination of the CCDsoft and CCDstack pretty much doesn't what I need it to do. Yes, I love the intuitive feel of MaxIm, and I really miss that little tracking graph. But those are features I don't really need. Besides, as I said, since I use CCDsoft for my T-Point runs anyway, it, and not MaxIm, is actually the more indispensable program.
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jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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Dean
Postmaster
Reged: 12/31/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bailey Co Elev 8780 feet
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Quote:
Jay: Does CCDStack offer scripting so I can process a number of images? I downloaded the trial and it seems fairly straightforward but it would be nice to deconvolve, background smooth many images at a shot, ie unattended. Sorry for the minor deviation from the thread topic.
Quote:
Michael: I'm not aware of any software that does what you ask of it, that being scripted processing of an image. Most scripting programs I am aware of, like CCDAutoPilot, makes unattended image acquisition possible. As far as I know, once you get that data, you've got to it the old fashioned way. With CCDstack, you can make changes globally to multiple images, but I've never found that necessary. You're still going to always do processing steps like deconvolution and smoothing on a final stacked image or channel, not the individual data files. So at most, you are only having to do such processing on 3 or 4 files, as with an RGB or LRGB image.
You can record & playback command sequences (macros) in MaxIM so you can do things like open an image, calibrate it, fix bad pixels, debloom and save it (see attached) and repeat for a series of images.
You can also write VBScripts for MaxIM as well if you need more control and get into a whole bunch more stuff like camera and guider control.
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"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?
Edited by Dean (09/07/06 09:40 PM)
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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/06
Posts: 1538
Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana
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Dang nabit Dean! You just had to go and tell me this. Arrgh. Ok I'll download Maxim again and give it another test run with a little more knowledge under my belt.
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Michael W
Washoe Zephyr:
Arizona Sky Village:
I miss my AP1200.
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Dean
Postmaster
Reged: 12/31/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bailey Co Elev 8780 feet
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Quote:
Really, I see no reason to purchase MaxIm anymore, since CCDSoft with CCDStack is a cheaper solution (assuming CCDSoft came with your camera). And I think that tandem is ultimately more powerful than MaxIm alone. However, if you want the best software for camera control, MaxIm is still the easiest to use. The only reason I know longer use MaxIm is because I've had issues with how it works (or doesn't work) with my Paramount.
I agree that with the advent software like CCDStack and others, there are cheaper and even better options to MaxIM.
CCDSoft comes free with SBIG comeras, but it is a somewhat older version. You can upgrade to the full version for $99 (which is a great deal). Otherwise, CCDSoft lists for $349 at which point I'd say Maxim is a better choice (unless you own a Paramount  )
CCDSoft may not be a better choice for camera control though. Maxim supports many more cameras than CCDSoft (without having to add drivers). For example I used to use CCDSoft for image aquisition with my ST10, but when I wanted to use my DSI as an autoguider I was out of luck. Since I already had Maxim and it supported the DSI, I was able to use it to autoguide with the DSI. What was really cool was I was able to have Maxim use the DSI for guiding, but send the corrections to the ST10's autoguider relays and over to the mount's autoguider port.
If you use an SBIG CCDSoft may be just fine and most 3rd party software like FocusMax, CCDAutoPilot and others that need to talk to aquisition software will work with either CCDSoft or Maxim.
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"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?
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Kim Miau
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Malaysia
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How much is a CCDSoft? For a general astrophotographers, what are the functions they need? Does CCDSoft support photometry?
Regards,
Kim Miau.
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Robin Lee - Cyclops Optics
Meade 8" LX90
QHY5L-II + IMG0H + QHY8L
Have access to...
Mewlon 300 + EM500
TMB 175 f/8 + Gemini G41
And... bad weather.
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Good points, Dean! Thanks for adding that...I had forgotten about the command sequencer, which I never use. LOL!
Kim: Generally speaking, you need software that provides the following...
1.) camera control - allowing you to set camera temperature, adjust the camera's filter wheel, and connect into the scope's focuser and mount (for dithering and autoguiding)...and for taking the images, of course.
2.) calibration of images - to apply dark frames to remove thermal noise, flat fields to remove optical noise, and bias frames for scaling of darks and flats. Optionally, you need functions like hot/cold pixel removal and bloom removal, which doesn't exactly fall under the calibration category (perhaps it does), but I place it here because if you are going to apply such a thing, this is generally where you'd do it.
3.) registration of images - the ability to take individual images, align them together, and stack them via some algorithm like averaging, adding, median, Sigma clip, Min/max, etc.
4.) stretching tools - the ability to apply initial, logarithmic stretches of the data with tools like curves or digital development
5.) color combine - taking individual color channels and merging them in a single RGB or LRGB image.
6.) post-processing tools - finishing tools such as deconvolution and smoothing, noise removal, stretches to bring out detail, etc.
Photoshop, which is a must-have for anybody, IMO, pretty much handles steps 4 to 6...and can handle some of steps 2 and 3 in a pinch. However, you basically need CCDsoft and/or MaxIm to supply steps 1 to 3, though they can also do steps 4 to 6, though not with the same grace and power as Photoshop. CCDStack supplies steps 2 to 6, but it really shines for steps 2 to 5.
There are other functions, to be sure, but listed above would be considered the basics.
CCDsoft, working with TheSKY, has a full range of research tools, including photometry and astrometry.
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jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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PhilG
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 1229
Loc: Denver, CO - USA
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I'll through in my 2 cents:
I started with Maxim and was kind of overwhelmed by the program. CCDSoft seemed very easy and intuitive for image acquisition when I got it with my SBIG camera. Now that I'm more experienced I may find Maxim easier to use but I've gotten pretty confortable with its interface with TheSky and CCD Commander. I still use Maxim for aligning and stacking as it will do image rotation and scaling which I believe CCDSoft still will not. This is important as I do images over separate nights and helps when combining or aligning different binned images.
Also, I don't like the expensive leasing feature of Maxim.
Phil
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TEC, Stellarvue, Celestron, WO
AP, Takahashi, Apogee , Explora-Dome
http://www.infiniti-eng.com/astrophotos
Edited by PhilG (09/08/06 01:00 PM)
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Chuck Anstey
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 960
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Quote:
CCDSoft comes free with SBIG comeras, but it is a somewhat older version. You can upgrade to the full version for $99 (which is a great deal).
As far a I know, SBIG cameras come with CCDSoft Version 5, which is the latest version and have for quite a while. I think CCDSoft hasn't been updated except for fixes in about 2 years. Now "The Sky" that comes with SBIG is a version or two behind and is more limited in its functionality than the full-blown version.
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cbwerner
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 846
Loc: Maidens, VA
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Quote:
Photoshop, which is a must-have for anybody ...
Jay,
Excellent summary. One question - how big of a giveup would Photoshop Elements be versus Photoshop for a beginner? I have Elements, and the upgrade to the real thing is consequential costwise. Is it worth it to try starting with Elements, or should I just belly up to the bar and get Photoshop?
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Chris Werner
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