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jay52
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Posts: 2514
Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: cbwerner]
      #1139352 - 09/08/06 06:55 PM

Chris:

Elements is nothing close to PS. I'd get an older version, like ver. 5 or 6 off eBay...it will give you pretty much all you need...all the basics are there.

--------------------
jay
www.allaboutastro.com


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bill w
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: cbwerner]
      #1139954 - 09/09/06 03:15 AM

Quote:

Is it worth it to try starting with Elements, or should I just belly up to the bar and get Photoshop?



not that i'm a pro
but i only recently updated from elements.
i would get thru to level 6 (see earlier post) with maxim or images plus.
save a number of different versions: some emphasizing light areas with a bit of sharpening, some emphasizing stars, and some concentrating on the background--all with the same alignment as 16 bit tiff. then i'd import each as a layer into elements, combine sections of each in elements then do final levels, crop and save as jpg. it's more time consuming but it works. i didn't think my processing skills were good enough to notice a difference.

i wanted to put the money into mount, scope, etc until my processing skills improved.

having done that, the two killer apps for me were noel's actions and russ croman's gradient xterminator.
noel's actions only run in the full version of photoshop.

the problem with these two apps is that they're so good they might stunt your processing skills.

so the short version is i'd stay with elements until you hit the wall with gradients using basic photoshop techniques, then upgrade

--------------------
-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:


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Kim Miau
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Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 1261
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: cbwerner]
      #1140010 - 09/09/06 06:06 AM

Jay, you are so generous to share your knowledge! Do MaximDL and CCDSoft have the same basic controls? What about both of their research tools?

--------------------
Robin Lee - Cyclops Optics

Meade 8" LX90
QHY5L-II + IMG0H + QHY8L

Have access to...
Mewlon 300 + EM500
TMB 175 f/8 + Gemini G41
And... bad weather.


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jay52
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Kim Miau]
      #1140410 - 09/09/06 01:34 PM

Kim: It's easy to share...but what you do with it is your responsibility! LOL!

Both software has a similar control set, though now that I think of it, MaxIm's scope control features are a little more robust...MaxIm programs those into the program whereas CCDsoft figures you'll use TheSKY for that, and it does indeed integrate well with it...then again, so does MaxIm.

Image sequence controls are similar in practice, though I do like the fact that MaxIm can sequence filtered images in mostly any order you choose. CCDsoft will always run them in order, L through B in an LRGB data set.

Autoguiding is straightforward in both programs, first starting with a guidestar frame (snap shot), calibration, and then execution. Again, MaxIm is more intuitive here, showing the calibration in real-time (CCDsoft has you affirm calibration afterward in a completely separate window). Autoguiding itself is easy, as MaxIm allows aggressiveness settings to be changed on the fly...which I believe CCDsoft now does as well. I do like the AO implementation in CCDSoft, though...haven't used that feature in MaxIm yet, so I can't comment.

MaxIm has built in dithering for your exposures, CCDsoft does not, but that is supplied in a third party plug-in. Deblooming is another issue, as I like MaxIm's version of it...quick and simple. CCDsoft, I believe, does not have a debloomer, though I could care less really since I will normally use either MaxIm or CCDStack for that anyway...which leads to image calibrations...

Doing darks, flats, bias, etc. is the weakness of CCDsoft, IMO. While it does them, it's not as cohesive a process as it is in MaxIm or CCDstack. MaxIm lets you work on all the processes at once, and it intellegently makes the proper reductions based on time and temp. For example, you could just throw all your calibration frames into a big folder. MaxIm will pair up files automatically, including producing "master darks, flats, and biases," and then use the appropriate files on the correct lights, matched to temperature and length. And it gives options of scaling and calibration-type (average, median, etc.) within the same dialogue. On the other hand, CCDSoft does everything separately, darks in one dialogue, flats in another, without the possibility of scaling. Even then, you have to perform each calibration on one single light frame as you can't handle them in a batch. If you are going to do master darks, you must prepared those yourself beforehand. In other words, the CCDsoft dialog only allows for single images to be chosen.

Really, the differences in the two programs has less to do with WHAT they are doing, but HOW they do them. MaxIm is the more elegant and powerful program in that regard. However, as was stated above by somebody else, a newbie can be a little bit more overwhelmed by MaxIm at first, especially in the calibration box where you have so many choices...but even then, to MaxIm's credit, it has some simple wizards that will let you setup calibrations that way.

I'd just say that CCDsoft does pretty much what you need it to do. If you want to do things well, you'll either want MaxIm at some point or you'll want to supplement CCDsoft with a copy of CCDStack...which has no pier when it comes to calibrations, IMO, other than perhaps something like Mira, which nobody uses because it's too darn expensive.

--------------------
jay
www.allaboutastro.com


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jay52
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: jay52]
      #1140415 - 09/09/06 01:44 PM

Oh, as for research tools, I couldn't really break them down that well since I am, after all, interested more in pretty pictures.

I've used both astrometic engines to perform plate solves for various reasons, chiefly to do T-point runs. However, it should be mentioned that MaxIm used a "light" version of Bob Denny's PinPoint engine, so out of the box the feature set will not be entirely robust. However, I would suspect that if science is important to you, you'd upgrade to the full PinPoint engine anyway, which would then work seamless with MaxIm.

Both programs have good enough implementations for most people, and I like the way CCDsoft will actually list the stars in a plate solve as compared to the guide star catalog you used...and you have many options in that regard with both programs. Both programs also have tools such as graphs and blink comparisions as well. For variable star people, there are photometic capabilities in both programs, but I'm not even going to pretend how those work.

--------------------
jay
www.allaboutastro.com


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Dubboy
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Reged: 07/05/05
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL [Re: AstroArlo]
      #1140492 - 09/09/06 03:05 PM

I've got a newbie imager (dumb?) question.
Is Maxim DL the same software that comes with the Orion StarShoot Deep-Space CCD? Does anyone know how well this CCD performs?
Thanks...sorry if this is kinda off topic...just looking for some advice.

--------------------
Don

"Don't worry about what telescope you own, or its quality. Just get out under the night sky and enjoy God's wondrous universe" Thomas Back.






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Rusty
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Dubboy]
      #1140891 - 09/09/06 09:33 PM

No, the version is MaxIM DL Essentials, which is not the full-featured version.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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JAT Observatory
NOT a Wimp


Reged: 02/20/05
Posts: 8893
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Chuck Anstey]
      #1140910 - 09/09/06 09:53 PM

Quote:


As far a I know, SBIG cameras come with CCDSoft Version 5, which is the latest version and have for quite a while.




My last 2 SBIG cameras came with CCDSoft v5 full. (Well they forgot to include it with my Meteor Cam but a quick email fixed that.)

--------------------
-Marcus

Hey what did you expect? After all, I am just a pig with a nice smile!



www.jatobservatory.org


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Kim Miau
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Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Malaysia
Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: JAT Observatory]
      #1140974 - 09/09/06 11:00 PM

jay52, I do really appreciate your reply. They are so informative! I just can't stop clapping.

I am not into astrophysic research yet. It will be only after I know quite a little of knowledge as you. Most probably, I will go for MaximDL. Is there any special price from upgrading MaximDL Essentials to the full version?

--------------------
Robin Lee - Cyclops Optics

Meade 8" LX90
QHY5L-II + IMG0H + QHY8L

Have access to...
Mewlon 300 + EM500
TMB 175 f/8 + Gemini G41
And... bad weather.


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jay52
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Reged: 09/26/04
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Kim Miau]
      #1140984 - 09/09/06 11:06 PM

Kim:

Can't answer that question. However, when you purchase an SBIG camera you usually get a $100 off coupon for MaxIm, if I recall correctly.

--------------------
jay
www.allaboutastro.com


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Dean
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Reged: 12/31/04
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: jay52]
      #1141020 - 09/09/06 11:41 PM

Quote:

Kim:

Can't answer that question. However, when you purchase an SBIG camera you usually get a $100 off coupon for MaxIm, if I recall correctly.




It's $50 off, although it says you can get version 3 (if they have any left) and upgrade to version 4 for free, saving $100

http://sbig.com/sbwhtmls/soft_cert.htm

I would suggest that if you get an SBIG, just use CCDSoft at first and then decide later if you need MaxIm.

--------------------
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin

deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?


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Kim Miau
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Reged: 07/17/06
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Dean]
      #1141152 - 09/10/06 02:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Kim:

Can't answer that question. However, when you purchase an SBIG camera you usually get a $100 off coupon for MaxIm, if I recall correctly.




It's $50 off, although it says you can get version 3 (if they have any left) and upgrade to version 4 for free, saving $100

http://sbig.com/sbwhtmls/soft_cert.htm

I would suggest that if you get an SBIG, just use CCDSoft at first and then decide later if you need MaxIm.



Thanks for the suggestion.

--------------------
Robin Lee - Cyclops Optics

Meade 8" LX90
QHY5L-II + IMG0H + QHY8L

Have access to...
Mewlon 300 + EM500
TMB 175 f/8 + Gemini G41
And... bad weather.


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AstroArlo
sage


Reged: 01/29/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Kim Miau]
      #1151269 - 09/16/06 04:31 PM

Hello Everyone...

Thanks for all the great posts. I've been in the Wind River Range for a week looking for a lost person ... so it will take me a few days to catch up with all the great info here. But it sounds like I can get by quite well with CCDSoft v5, plus CCDStack, since I own an STL-11000M and a Paramount.

We got rain and our fist snow here, which put out the fires (and the thick snoke haze which was ruining the night sky)! So once it clears the sky should be better for imaging!!!!!

--------------------
Best Regards, Arlo
Grand Cosmic Observatory, Jackson Hole, Wyoming

CATS/CASS - 20" RCOS Ritchey-Chretien, C14, C8
REFRACTORS - 155mm Astro-Physics Starfire EDF w/4" Focuser, 102mm Televue Genesis, 78mm FS Takahashi
ASTROGRAPHS - 8" Lichtenecker Flat Field Camera, 6" JSO Schmidt Camera
MOUNTS - Paramount ME, Losmandy GM200, Takahashi EM-100
CCD/IMAGING - SBIG STS-4, SBIG STL-11000M


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JAT Observatory
NOT a Wimp


Reged: 02/20/05
Posts: 8893
Loc: In the Primordial Soup
Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: AstroArlo]
      #2601173 - 08/24/08 06:57 PM

I know this thread is old but I figured I might add some stuff to it. I still use CCDSoft because I have written a number of script files that control my mount, focuser switch box and camera via TheSky and CCDSoft.

As stated before CCDSoft is a simpler program o use than MaxIm. But most of its limited image processing can be scripted. The main feature I like is one that caters to the Paramount and that is the direct guide function. That allows no guider cables to be connected to the camera and it works very well.

I also have MaxIm because I use Bob Denny's ACP program. In remote web mode ACP requires MaxIm. I recently upgraded to MaxIm ver5. The are a lot of features that I like in v5. I like the fact that it does a better job of supporting 2 cameras and you can now fully use either camera as a guider or a imager without some camera features being unavailable because you defined that camera as a guider.

I personally found CCDSoft did a better job of guiding my mount than MaxIm did so I would sometimes guide with CCDSoft and image which MaxIm. I liked the calibration process and CCDSoft's built in @Focus2 routines. I also found CCDSoft to do a much better job at plate solving than MaxIm did. Another feature I like which I have to admit I only recently discovered is it allows you to open a separate video window inside the program. This window is in addition to the CCD windows for your guider and imager. I use the video window the monitor the CCD video camera that is attached to the mount and provides a wide angle video of the dome's slit and sky. From this window I can also switch to the over video input so I can monitor the Mallincam which is attached to a 50mm finder scope. This allowed me to monitor the sky real-time remotely for clouds, planes or my mother in-law.

I have not have a chance to fully explore the new MaxIm V5 yet but it has some new stuff that I am excited about. It now has a mini planetarium program inside that provides a basic view of the sky and allows gotos from it. It also supports ASCOM dome control which is a big plus as you can now image, control your scope and slave the dome to the scope directly from within MaxIm. That include defining the dome's geometry inside MaxIm.

My biggest weakness in past when using MaxIm was my lack of ability to script things easily in MaxIm as I did in CCDSoft. In CCDSoft I just wrote scripts in vbs of wsf format. These files interfaced very well with TheSky and CCDSoft using their RASCOM objects. This allowed me to easily do stuff like put buttons on the toolbar to switch between the focuser on my guide or imaging scope, or to center either scope on the brightest star in the image. And I was able to do this with just a few lines of code.

Becauase of MaxIm's new features I have a renewed interest in learning to script MaxIm.

--------------------
-Marcus

Hey what did you expect? After all, I am just a pig with a nice smile!



www.jatobservatory.org


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Ozy



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Posts: 1028
Loc: Goodyear, AZ
Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: JAT Observatory]
      #2601445 - 08/24/08 09:21 PM

I'd be able to comment on CCDSoft if I could get some SX drivers for my camera. VERY frustrating.

--------------------
Cuttin' Edge Observatory

Gaggle of Taks, Handful of Mirrors, some Chilled Silicon sitting on Red and Black Monsters


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Joe F Gafford
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Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Ozy]
      #2601945 - 08/25/08 05:53 AM

I been using CCD Soft for my image capture and part of the processing. I just got the Maxin DL a month ago and there is some things in it that is a little more complex than CCD Soft. CCD Soft is quicker and easier than Maxim DL in the final color stack. CCD Soft has a larger preview window that is adjustable in size, with the color mix sliders. The Maxim DL has a smaller window, not adjustable. No sliders for the color mix. You have to enter the numbers in the boxes. You have to update the preview window every time you chance the numeric values in DL. CCD soft updates each time. CCD Soft has histogram lower pedestal limits adjustment for each color channel in LRGB, pedestal and upper limit in the Lum channel. RGB only has both histogram adjustments on the colors.
CCD soft still has limits on adding frames (Latest news on that later!) The addition has a 16 bit limit. Maxim DL has the IEEE 32 bit floating point on the output on the addition. It also has a quicker auto stack routine. It has a problem aligning images though. CCD Soft is a better at that.
Synopsis with the images I do with the ST-2000XM ccd camera:
Planetarium and capture : The Sky6 Pro & CCD Soft.
Dark, Flat: Tie; Maxim is a little faster, my camera does its own bias.
Alignment of Image: CCD Soft
Adjustment of the Lum frame: Fits liberator in Photoshop, 10 log choices of brightness contours, very clean.
Export of Lum frame is to Maxim to turn it to 16 bit fit from tiff and into CCD soft.
Color Stack: CCD Soft. It is simpler. Output is cleaner. The color output in Maxim is muddier.
Final tweak: Photoshop of course.

Latest news on CCD Soft: I was at Software Bisque last week and they told me that the CCD Soft elements plus more, telescope control and observatory scripting will be imbedded in the new Sky X Professional coming out a bit later (They didn't tell me when). They will have more processing options on image processing including support for the IEEE fits as well. The Star Catalog for the WCS solutions for us asteroid chasers (and others) is NOMAD (Sky X Pro only). Stay Tuned!
Joe.

Bisque site: http://www.bisque.com/
NOMAD Site: http://www.nofs.navy.mil/nomad/
Fits Liberator for Photoshop (most editions): http://www.spacetelescope.org/projects/fits_liberator/

--------------------
JMI 18" f4.5 Newtonian, split ring mount
10" f4.5 Newtonian on GEM (was a DS-10 once upon a time)
50 and 110 mm Mamiya RZ lenses with homemade adapter
ST-2000XM camera


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JAT Observatory
NOT a Wimp


Reged: 02/20/05
Posts: 8893
Loc: In the Primordial Soup
Re: CCDSoft V.5 vs MaximDL new [Re: Joe F Gafford]
      #2602153 - 08/25/08 09:23 AM

Joe,
Thanks for the update news on CCDSoft and TheSky X, and the comparison of CCDSoft and MDL. I am looking forward to the imbedded scripting.

--------------------
-Marcus

Hey what did you expect? After all, I am just a pig with a nice smile!



www.jatobservatory.org


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