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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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I've got an idea but need some input from the Mods. 
Mike G (Glassthrower) initiated a thread in the Bino forum, and it gave me an idea. Various atlases and charts were being discussed and I thought.. " ...wouldn't it be great to construct a thread with each post concentrating on a different chart/atlas? Descriptions would be included, as well as a small sample image. As far as I know there's nothing like it online, and it would be a wonderful guide for Amateurs, enabling them to choose the publication(s) which best suit their equipment and viewing needs."
Descriptions in the posts might include things like stellar magnitude, number of charts, type of binding, etc. As I understand it, small samples of the charts and atlases would be ok to post w/o copyright infringement, and to me that would make the thread unique.. we'd finally see all of the charts we've been hearing so much about.
And let's not forget about astronomy programs. In Mike's thread, Michael (mplkn1) posted a very informative message regarding his use of the Palm Planetarium, and I imagine those of us with programs on our computers could post sample screen shots and give a bit of info, too.
Mike mentioned that instead of having the thread in the Bino forum, it might be better to have it here or in the Beginner forum (maybe Deep Sky?) so I figured I'd start here. Kick it around backstage a bit. If you think it's a good idea but would best serve the membership by being in another forum, please give it a push in the right direction.. it'll save me a cut-and-paste. 
Btw, I know there's a sticky thread at the top of this forum (Stellar Media) which is about charts and atlases, but the thread I'm picturing would be a Mod-initiated repository.. not a discussion thread. Why Mod-initiated? Simple. You have the authority to request that members refrain from interjecting comments, and you also have the authority to remove messages which would interrupt the flow.
So what does everyone think? (Members, too)...
Thumbs up?
Thumbs down?
Collective yawn? 
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Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
Moon Sketch Tutorial
Sun/DSO Sketch Tutorial
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
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The only objection I could see is that there are a limited number of print atlases available, but there are a LOT of cyberspace ones. The thread could become quite long if each atlas'es strengths and weaknesses were fully discussed. Willmann Bell takes several web pages to discuss Megastar, and it's only one of perhaps a hundred web and PC-based atlases.
This could be a HUGE thread.
Now a thread in which each atlas's home page could be linked wouldn't be too long.
But if each atlas were discussed? This could be one of those threads that takes dial-up users 30 minutes to download.
I looked up computer programs that control a Celestron C5GT mount the other day, and there were 674 of them. Some were free and some were for purchase, and not all had sky-charting, but a lot of them did.
You might start off by just making a personal list to see if it's manageable. That's what I did with the Eyepiece Buyer's Guide. It turned out to be nearly 1200 eyepieces available. There probably aren't that many atlases available, but I bet it could run into a serious-length book if features and details for each were included.
One possibility would be to put the most important features on the top row of a spreadsheet with the program names down the left. Then an X in the box to indicate the presence of that feature would let the prospective buyer/downloader know what's included in the program.
I love long spreadsheets, but I wouldn't touch this one with a ten-foot pole.
It would be a wonderful resource, though. I'll have to give it more thought.
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Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Thanks for your input, Don. Writing has never been one of my strong points, and maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post. I'll give it another shot and go a bit deeper.
I pictured a thread for posting 'samples of' and 'descriptions of' maps we use to find our way around the sky (charts, atlases and onscreen programs). We've heard about many of these publications but haven't seen all of them, and I thought it would be a good idea to be able to see what others use. It would be a great help for people wanting to purchase a sky guide, too.
The thread would consist of posts contributed by members, each post concentrating on a different publication (such as Sky Atlas 2000, the Millennium Star Atlas or the Sky Tools program).
All posts would be objective, with no opinions given about the product... only a factual guide as to what it contains. This thread will merely exhibit what's out there by showing a sample and giving a dry explanation of what the publication contains by way of pages, number of volumes, deep sky objects included, limiting stellar magnitude, etc.
Jmho, a 400x400 screen shot or scan of a map is large enough to show what the program has to offer. Oversized images force those with modest sized screens to scroll back and forth to read the text, and anyone who's ever had to do this knows it gets old pretty fast.
In cases of multiple posts covering the same product, I guess the rule of first-come first-served would apply, with the duplicate being extracted by a Mod. So before posting, it would be advisable to check what's already there first.
If you have additional info regarding a publication already covered by someone, PM one of the Mods so they could add it to the post for you.
Discussions would not be allowed in the thread itself, but would be carried out in the forum. The possibility of creating a mega-thread is exactly why I said "the thread I'm picturing would be a Mod-initiated repository.. not a discussion thread."
Electronic devices which slew a scope to an object wouldn't belong in the thread because the thread is about maps.. not navigation tools.
There's probably some other things which have been forgotten but I've never done anything like this before. Who knows, the whole thing could turn out to be a total snore. 
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Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
Moon Sketch Tutorial
Sun/DSO Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
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For starters:
Tirion Atlas 2000.0 (several versions)
Uranometria 2000.0
Norton's
Astronomy Magazine Atlas
Harald-Bobroff AstroAtlas
SkyTools2
Carte du Ciel
Megastar
Starry Night(several versions)
The Sky
Bright Star Atlas
Cambridge Star Atlas
DeepSky Astronomy Software
Star Atlas Pro
Taki's Star Atlas (several versions)
Free Mag.7 Star Atlas (on CN)
Sky Chart III
Pocket Sky Atlas
Orion Deep Map 600
The Observer's Sky Atlas (in German)
Seasonal Star Atlas and Glow in the Dark Star Finder
Millenium Star Atlas
And that's off the top of my head. I'm forgetting the ones that run on Palm Pilots and I've seen other charting software.
While these are not solely star atlases, they all contain star charts and have the ability to print charts for the field (or ARE printed charts).
I think this would be a big project, but it might be quite a resource once everyone contributes a write-up of his favorite sky-charting program or book.
Count me in. I use Megastar, U2000.0, and Taki's Atlas on a regular basis.
Post here when and where to post if anyone else is interested.
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Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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Time on my hands
sage
Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
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I for one would find this type of information very useful at this time as I am looking at buying an atlas and software. I have had mixed results with the book purchases I have made so far and never have liked buying blind (especially if the purchase goes over $50). I wish it was already here and if this idea takes off I will hold off on my planned purchases for a while. This may be a good idea anyway, all I did was talk about buying a new telescope this evening and the clouds came rolling in, 100% coverage as I write this. 
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Thomas
18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]
I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 17931
Loc: Oort Cloud 9
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I would humbly suggest that every writer who submits an entry for this project should use the same area of sky for the review. For example, if every mini-review in this thread were to concentrate on Orion (or whatever), then the reader could easily compare the features of each atlas by seeing how that same area of sky looks in each. Know what I mean? Just a thought. Regardless of how it pans out, this is a great idea. Thanks again Carol. 
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
☄ ⒼⒶⓁⒶⒸⓉⒾⒸ ⓈⓉⓄⓃⒺ ☞ www.galactic-stone.com
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photonovore
Moonatic
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2792
Loc: tacoma wa
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Well, links to the computer atlas programs would be sufficient because they all have screenshots, etc on their sales pages. Not so with paper atlases though. I think that is where descriptive reviews with sample images would be most useful. It would alos limit the size of the project to a do-able number of examples.
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Mardi
4" achromat, ETX-70, 8"cat.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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kraterkid
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/05
Posts: 4709
Loc: Jacumba, California
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Carol, I think your idea is great, but I agree with Mardi. If you limit the post to discussions of paper atlases and the response is as good as I expect it would, later you could start a similar post regarding software atlases. Otherwise things could get overwhelming fast.
Mike, that idea to concentrate on one constellation is excellent. I like the idea of having a common basis of comparison at the graphics level.
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Rich
My CN Gallery
Edited by kraterkid (09/14/06 12:06 PM)
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
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Printed Atlases:
Tirion Atlas 2000.0 (several versions)
Uranometria 2000.0
Norton's
Astronomy Magazine Atlas
Harald-Bobroff AstroAtlas
Bright Star Atlas
Cambridge Star Atlas
Pocket Sky Atlas
Orion Deep Map 600
The Observer's Sky Atlas (in German)
Seasonal Star Atlas and Glow in the Dark Star Finder
Millenium Star Atlas
Peterson's Guide to the Stars
Anyone know of any others?
--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
Edited by Starman1 (09/14/06 12:23 PM)
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Don, that's quite a list. As far as I can tell you've already mentioned all of mine.
Thanks Thomas, your message supports my feeling that something like this would be a valuable resource to Amateurs.
Mike, that's a great idea! The first thing I do with a new map is compare a specific area to the maps I already have. I haven't come across any exact duplicates so far, which is one reason it'd be nice to be able to see prospective purchases side-by-side.
Mardi, jmho it'd probably be best not to rely on links, but to include small screenshots. Sometimes the webmasters do a bit of re-organizion and although the desired info is still onsite it has a different URL (they don't always auto-direct you to the new page, either.)
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
Moon Sketch Tutorial
Sun/DSO Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Binocular Mini Reviews
A Lunar Bibliography
These two links will take you to similar projects that have been developed elsewhere on Cloudy Nights. I thought you might find the examples useful for this discussion.
This is a good idea. 
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Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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By the way, I feel compelled to point out that Cloudy Nights would benefit from flat out reviews of these resources in the review and article portion of the website. We don't call the place Cloud Nights Telescope Reviews for nothing, ya know!
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Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
Printed Atlases:
Tirion Atlas 2000.0 (several versions)
Uranometria 2000.0
Norton's
Astronomy Magazine Atlas
Harald-Bobroff AstroAtlas
Bright Star Atlas
Cambridge Star Atlas
Pocket Sky Atlas
Orion Deep Map 600
The Observer's Sky Atlas (in German)
Seasonal Star Atlas and Glow in the Dark Star Finder
Millenium Star Atlas
Peterson's Guide to the Stars
Anyone know of any others?
Believe it or not, I actualy had two upstairs that aren't listed:
National Audubon Society Field Guide to the Night Sky
Peterson First Guides / Astronomy
(I think I've seen the Peterson book you mentioned but just to verify, mine runs about five dollars and is 128 pages, 3.75" x 7.25"... probably not the same one.)
Btw, why'd you omit the computer programs from your list?
Thanks for the links, Tom! Yes, I'm familiar with the wealth of info contained in those pages, but rather than construct another list of links, my envisioned thread would be self-contained.. unique on the web as far as I know.
Come to think of it, with all of the books you have I'm sure you've got a few that haven't been listed yet... you're not holding out on us, are you?
Quote:
By the way, I feel compelled to point out that Cloudy Nights would benefit from flat out reviews of these resources in the review and article portion of the website. We don't call the place Cloud Nights Telescope Reviews for nothing, ya know!
Now that's a great idea! My suggestion of 'dry, objective' posts still stands as far as the actual thread goes, but Reviews would definitely be a plus for CN's archive. 
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
Moon Sketch Tutorial
Sun/DSO Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
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Carol,
We were talking about just printed atlases, so I tried to think of everyone I've heard of. The Peterson Guide book I was referring to is about $20 and includes a star atlas by Wil Tirion that's a little smaller in scale (but broken into more charts) than Sky Atlas 2000.0. It's a guide to Astronomy but includes the atlas. I'd guess it at 400-500 pages, and paperback-sized.
I purposely excluded several atlases I own that are out of print, like the Atlas Borealis/Eclipticalis/Australis of several years back, Tully's "Nearby Galaxies Atlas", and Becvar's Atlas Coeli. Are the two you mention still in print?
If CN had reviews of all of these, the reviews could easily be rearranged into an Atlas section.
My earlier post included several computer programs, but I think it's a different beast.
The gray area is the printed observing guides with charts (like the Messier Cards, or the Telrad charts available from a couple publishers). Are these atlases? Not really, but they do have star charts within them.
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Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 11940
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Are we limiting this to currently-available atlases? That is, no reviews of old atlases like Becvar, that are out of print but still available sometimes?
Is the Philips Color Star Atlas still available?
Oops, Don already mentioned Becvar.
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- Rick
14" LX200
Cactus Patch Observatory
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom, and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three."
Edited by Rick Woods (09/14/06 03:01 PM)
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Come to think of it, with all of the books you have I'm sure you've got a few that haven't been listed yet... you're not holding out on us, are you?
Not deliberately, although so far everything I have has shown up on the lists you guys have generated. I've got a lot going on away from the forum, this week, which keeps me from spending the time on this it deserves. But do keep the brain storm rolling!
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Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Are we limiting this to currently-available atlases? That is, no reviews of old atlases like Becvar, that are out of print but still available sometimes?
Is the Philips Color Star Atlas still available?
Oops, Don already mentioned Becvar.
I absolutely would not recommend limiting it to publications currently in print. There's some good stuff out there available in the used book market. Including worthy but out-of-print works would help those who seek such things judge the worth of an opportunity when it comes by. For instance, elsewhere we have a thread on the Messier Album by Mallas & Kreimer. An old favorite of many, out-of-print, and a book that I somehow managed not to hear of until it was discussed here. Not only did that discussion bring the book to my attention, it convinced me it was worth tracking down. Which I have now done.
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Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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photonovore
Moonatic
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2792
Loc: tacoma wa
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Well, there are *guides* and then there are atlases... That's two separate catagories, IMO. For example, Burnham's is a guide, Skalnate-Pleso is an atlas. The Messier Album by Mallas & Kreimer sounds more of an observing guide than an atlas to me...
As for atlases in and out of print, considering precession is primarily what drives stellar atlases out of print, there is little utility in reviewing an atlas that is made to an expired epoch, save for historical interest. Just a thought.
Guides are more "durable", as far as time goes, being descriptive rather than strictly locational in how they deal with objects they cover. There isn't any strong reason i can see to limit these to those still in-print. But even in the lunie bin's archive of book reviews we recognize guides as being different animals than atlases.
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Mardi
4" achromat, ETX-70, 8"cat.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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BoriSpider
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/10/04
Posts: 1726
Loc: S.W.FLA
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I have, and don't think it was mentioned, the
"Collins Atlas of the Night Sky".
With Antonin Rukl on the Moon and Wil Tirion on
star maps. It also has a constellation map section.
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Nikon Action 8x40 binos
C4-R, mountless 114NT
Everglades Astronomical Society
"When the Moon is a couterfiet, better find the one that fits,
better find the one that lights the way for you."
ISTAR Scope Club
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Well, there are *guides* and then there are atlases... That's two separate catagories, IMO. For example, Burnham's is a guide, Skalnate-Pleso is an atlas. The Messier Album by Mallas & Kreimer sounds more of an observing guide than an atlas to me...
As for atlases in and out of print, considering precession is primarily what drives stellar atlases out of print, there is little utility in reviewing an atlas that is made to an expired epoch, save for historical interest. Just a thought.
Guides are more "durable", as far as time goes, being descriptive rather than strictly locational in how they deal with objects they cover. There isn't any strong reason i can see to limit these to those still in-print. But even in the lunie bin's archive of book reviews we recognize guides as being different animals than atlases.
My impression of what I've read so far is that this project would deal with atlases/star charts, whether books or software. I'd leave observing guides for a separate project, for the sake of efficiency.
As for older atlases, yes, the primary interest would be historical. But so long as it is noted clearly (and perhaps explained) that allowances for the passage of time should be made, I don't see any reason to exclude them. In the end, of course, it would be up to the contributors. If everyone who participates stays "up to date," it's a moot point.
--------------------
Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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